The Cult Victim Thread
Here is the complete thread
that followed my classic tongue-in-cheek intro to the Waldorf
Critics list.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Tarjei Straume
Subject: cult victim needing help
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 20:49:44 +0100
Dear fellow subscribers,
I wonder if someone may be able to tell me
where to get the help I need to get out of the Steiner-cult.
To begin with, I would like to talk to an exit counsellor and
then seek therapy. I don't know if there are such exit counsellors
here in Norway, so I was hoping with this post to be directed
to one in my area.
I have been a victim of the Steiner-cult for
a very long time - since childhood. When I now want to get out
at age fifty, a deprogrammer may be called for, but I don't know
how to locate one, and I'm very afraid of the whole thing.
In the late 1950's, my mother was was exposed
to Anthroposophy by the religious aspect of it by starting off
with "Theosophy." She also applied it in her artistic
work, first as an actress, later as a music teacher. Through
her influence I I was exposed to all kinds of tales about Lucifer
and Ahriman and life after death as a child, and at age 15 or
16 I began to read the books off my mother's shelves. The first
one was "Cosmic Memory" about our Atlantean and Lemurian
ancestors. It bridged the gap for me between Darwin and the Bible
- a riddle I had subconsciously pondered - and got me hooked.
And before I knew it, I was reading Steiner around the clock
about every topic from the spiritual properties of sugar to elves
and gnomes and Egyptian mysteries, and when I was 18, I had read
"Occult Science," "Christianity as Mystical Fact,"
and "Knowledge of the Higher Worlds."
What I did not realize of course, was that
my mother and Rudolf Steiner had molded my view of reality in
a coercive way. During the years to come, my anthroposophical
reading habits were rare, occasional, and sporadic while I tested
out other religions, world views, and philosophies. In the late
1980's when I was living in Texas, I purchased a whole library
of Steiner and entered another period of extensive reading. I
even joined the Anthroposophical Society for a while and participated
regularly in a local study group. I had "returned"
to Steiner after many years as the only spiritual teacher I found
trustworthy, feeling that all the others had let me down at some
point. Now I recognize how dangerous and deceptive it is to think
like that!
Rudolf Steiner's spiritual ideas about evolution
and cosmos are constantly presenting themselves to me when I
meditate or ruminate about life. Does anyone familiar with therapeutic
medicine know about a safe cure? I am worried about being cured
also - which I understand is a common reaction among long time
cult victims who are beginning to wake up. I am confused, because
I don't know if deprogrammers and therapists would want me to
embrace atheism, which has somehow never worked for me before,
or if it's ok to become a Baptist or a Roman Catholic or something.
The problem I have with these religions is that I cannot accept
the literal Immaculate Conception and other irrationalities that
I found (to me) acceptable explanations for in the Cult of Anthroposophy.
Maybe the best thing for me is to denounce Christianity altogether?
If I succeed in mustering enough courage to
take the big step away from this cult, I also need som advice
from people with the same experience. How do I handle anthroposophists
who might want to persuade and coerce me back into the nightmare?
What if they start a harassment campaign against me - I know
for a fact that most ex-cultists who have exited (or fled) are
subjected to all kinds of abuses. Should I explain the situation
to the police before taking the drastic step?
And then there are the children. It is always
the children who suffer most from civil wars and cults and all
other calamities that we adults bring into this world. I have
a nine year old son in a different city. He attends Waldorf school
there and lives with his mother, who is a totally brainwashed
anthroposophist with the entire Steiner-library in the original
German! She's nuts I tell you, and beyond hope. She'll probably
die in the cult just like my mother did. Anyway, she has full
custody of our son, so I guess I'll never get him out of Waldorf.
But perhaps some of my fellow subscribers may advise me about
the deprogramming of children. Because If I don't get out of
this, but die in the cult like my mother, and my son does the
same as his parents, I despair for the hope of the world.
Tarjei Straume
http://www.uncletaz.com/
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From: "Steve Premo"
Subject: Re: cult victim needing help
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 14:01:08 -0700
On 26 Jan 99, at 20:49, Tarjei Straume wrote:
I wonder if someone may be able to tell
me where to get the help I need to get out of the Steiner-cult.
I have been a victim of the Steiner-cult for a very long time
- since childhood. When I now want to get out at age fifty, a
deprogrammer may be called for, but I don't know how to locate
one, and I'm very afraid of the whole thing.
Nice troll, Uncle Taz. I got a real chuckle
out of it.
Steve Premo -- Santa Cruz, California
"Minutus cantorum, minutus balorum, minutus carbonata descendum
pantorum." (A little song, a little dance, a little seltzer
down your pants.)
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From: Tarjei Straume
Subject: Re: cult victim needing help
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 02:45:11 +0100
I wrote:
I wonder if someone may be able to tell
me where to get the help I need to get out of the Steiner-cult.
I have been a victim of the Steiner-cult for a very long time
- since childhood. When I now want to get out at age fifty, a
deprogrammer may be called for, but I don't know how to locate
one, and I'm very afraid of the whole thing.
Steve Premo wrote:
Nice troll, Uncle Taz. I got a real chuckle
out of it.
Trolling was not the the sole purpose with
my post. I wouldn't even call it trolling, but an endeavor to
put a point across by using satire. There are good reasons to
be alert against cults nowadays. I mean groups using coersive
tactics and extortion, and whose practices are detrimental to
mental health (or soul-spiritual health if you like), and sometimes
even to physical health. There are also instances where cults
kill people, and some of these organizations have an alarming
rate of psychoses, suicides, and strange deaths. Speaking up
against them in a public medium may also be detrimental to your
physical and mental health if you're up against a mafia-style,
criminal cult.
Basically, the word "cult" has four
meanings:
1) Communion with the spiritual world, with
higher beings or gods. (This is how the word is used in Baghavad
Gita.)
2) Any religious or spiritual-philosophical
view that contradicts the doctrines of Fundamentalist Christianity
in the Religious Right. (According to this definition, you are
a cultist if you read astrology or Tarot cards, or if you believe
in reincarnation.)
3) Any spiritual philosophy embracing beliefs
that may be defined as strange or weird by atheists or orthodox
religionists because of their unfamiliarity. (The doctrines of
the Immaculate Conception of Mary, and the Ressurrection and
Ascension of Christ in his physical body is weird, but it is
familiar and therefore considered normal and acceptable.)
4) A religious group or organization that
practices coercive tactics, aggressive proselytizing, control
of members' personal life, family life, financial life etc. plus
other factors.
For a further exploration of definition 4,
I recommend the AFF Cult Group Information at
http://www.csj.org/index.html
I believe that Anthroposophy belongs to definitions
1, 2, and 3, but not 4.
The reason for my previous post where I ask
for help to get out of this cult is that I hear it is dangerous,
and that the Waldorf school is dangerous for my son Thomas. And
perhaps I have not seen the danger signs because I have been
so brainwashed all along. Because if there is anything to definition
4 that may be applied to Anthroposophy, perhaps I was put in
trance by my anthropop mother when I was a kid, without noticing
it until now.
My question is this: Isn't being a harmless
weirdo a civil right? And don't we have the the perfect right
to have our own weird schools with weird teachers for our very
own weird children?
Cheers,
Tarjei
http://www.uncletaz.com/
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Ezra Beeman
Subject: Re: cult victim needing help
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 21:06:13 -0800
I think this is the very first post from this
list to make me chuckle out loud.
e
PS Bravo on every point you make (in both
your posts).
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From: "Steve Premo"
Subject: Re: cult victim needing help
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 08:25:53 -0700
On 27 Jan 99, at 2:45, Tarjei Straume wrote:
My question is this: Isn't being a harmless
weirdo a civil right?
Yes, it is, at least where religion is concerned.
And don't we have the the perfect right
to have our own weird schools with weird teachers for our very
own weird children?
Absolutely. I don't think anyone's disputing
that.
Steve Premo -- Santa Cruz, California
"Minutus cantorum, minutus balorum, minutus carbonata descendum
pantorum." (A little song, a little dance, a little seltzer
down your pants.)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Dan Dugan
Subject: Re: cult victim needing help-really
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 17:01:14 -0800
Tarjei makes fun of it, but there are people
who find it difficult to readjust to normal life after having
committed years of their lives to Anthroposophy and then realizing
that Anthroposophy is not what they had been led to believe it
would be.
People wanting help in exiting cults and cult-like
groups can find assistance from:
Dr. Paul Martin
Wellspring Retreat and Resource Center
P.O. Box 67
Albany, OH 45710
phone: 614 698 6277
This is exit counselling, not deprogramming.
-Dan Dugan
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From: Tarjei Straume
Subject: Re: cult victim needing help-really
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 10:31:52 +0100
Dan Dugan writes:
Tarjei makes fun of it, but there are people
who find it difficult to readjust to normal life after having
committed years of their lives to Anthroposophy and then realizing
that Anthroposophy is not what they had been led to believe it
would be.
Please explain to me how to readjust to normal
life after thirty years in the cult. That is really something
I cannot do without help. I understand it is difficult, but I
am willing to make an effort.
Besides, I need a definition of normal life,
and an explanation as to why and how my life is abnormal.
I need special assistance with the removal
of the spiritual world-picture that I cannot get rid of.
Tarjei
http://www.uncletaz.com/
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Tarjei
Straume
Subject: Re: cult victim needing help-really
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 14:04:44 +0100
Dan Dugan wrote:
If you're serious, ask Dr. Paul Martin.
Otherwise, stop bullshitting us here.
The bullshit is the suggestion that exposure
to Anthroposophy creates cult victims. I have done a great deal
of research on Scientology, and I am still in touch with people
who were in that cult for a long time. I know the difference
between a desctructive and coercive cult, and a free spiritual
movement. You obviously don't.
Tarjei
http://www.uncletaz.com/
[Dan responds
in another thread.]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Daniel Sabsay
Subject: Re: cult victim needing help-really
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 05:18:54 -0800
Tarjei Straume wrote
The bullshit is the suggestion that exposure
to Anthroposophy creates cult victims. I have done a great deal
of research on Scientology, and I am still in touch with people
who were in that cult for a long time. I know the difference
between a desctructive and coercive cult, and a free spiritual
movement. You obviously don't.
Just look at the website of Sune Nordwall,
and you will see the destructive result. http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/indexeng.htm
- a site on science, homeopathy, cosmological cell biology and
EU as a mechanical esoteric temple and threefolding of society
-- Daniel
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Daniel Sabsay, president "Ignorance is the ultimate renewable
resource"
East Bay Skeptics Society http://www.eb-skeptics.org
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Tarjei Straume
Subject: Re: cult victim needing help-really
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 15:35:05 +0100
Daniel wrote:
Just look at the website of Sune Nordwall,
and you will see the destructive result. http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/indexeng.htm
- a site on science, homeopathy, cosmological cell biology and
EU as a mechanical esoteric temple and threefolding of society
What and whom does Sune's website threaten
to destroy? If this website is supposed to be *the result of*
a destructive philosophy, I don't see the connection. Is it *destructive*
to approach natural-scientific questions from an anthroposophical
perspective?
I also fail to see anything destructive in
the theory of the Threefold Social Order that is based upon the
ideas expressed during the French Revolution: Fraternity, Equality,
and Liberty.
Tarjei
http://www.uncletaz.com/
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Steve Premo"
Subject: Re: cult victim needing help-really
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 08:59:04 -0700
On 29 Jan 99, at 14:04, Tarjei Straume wrote:
The bullshit is the suggestion that exposure
to Anthroposophy creates cult victims.
I must have missed that. I've heard Dan refer
to Anthroposophy as a cult-like religious movement, or a cult
on the way to becoming a religion, but I've never heard him suggest
that it was a destructive mind-control cult. I understood him
to be using the word "cult" to refer to a small religious
movement based on the teachings of a single charismatic leader.
What specific statements by Dan are you referring
to?
Steve Premo -- Santa Cruz, California
"Minutus cantorum, minutus balorum, minutus carbonata descendum
pantorum." (A little song, a little dance, a little seltzer
down your pants.)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Tarjei Straume
Subject: Re: cult victim needing help-really
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 18:48:21 +0100
Steve Premo wrote:
I've heard Dan refer to Anthroposophy as
a cult-like religious movement, or a cult on the way to becoming
a religion, but I've never heard him suggest that it was a destructive
mind-control cult. I understood him to be using the word "cult"
to refer to a small religious movement based on the teachings
of a single charismatic leader.
What specific statements by Dan are you
referring to?
Dan's post 27 Jan reads as follows:
"Tarjei makes fun
of it, but there are people who find it difficult to readjust
to normal life after having committed years of their lives to
Anthroposophy and then realizing that Anthroposophy is not what
they had been led to believe it would be.
People wanting help
in exiting cults and cult-like groups can find assistance from:
Dr. Paul Martin
Wellspring Retreat and Resource Center
P.O. Box 67
Albany, OH 45710
phone: 614 698 6277
This is exit counselling,
not deprogramming."
In other words, Anthroposophy belongs in the
heap of cults and cult-like groups that produces the need for
exit counselling, perhaps deprogramming. That is what I call
bullshit. The Roman Catholic Church might fit into the category
in question, because it has a living leader whose unquestioned
authotity interferes even with people's bedroom activities. As
a virulent, anti-authoritarian anarchist with a penchant for
Bakunin, Kropotkin, Tucker, Tolstoi and Steiner, I could never
have become a part of a movement where the slightest suggestion
of such authority, or of any other authority, was implied.
Another question arises from Dan's quoted
post: Who is going around leading people to believe that Anthroposophy
would be something it is not? I, for one, am not doing this.
There are cults out there, however, that deliberately trap and
seduce people by making them believe that they will be led to
Christianity or Anthroposophy or Buddhism or freedom in general
when in fact they extort their money and practice thought- and
behavior control, leading them to slavery.
Anthroposophy can only be defined as a cult
or cult-like movement because of beliefs and theories that seem
weird or strange. (Even here, the Catholc Immaculate Conception
of Mary is a fair match.) If strange and weird lectures and books
made the listeners and readers need therapists, exit counsellors
and deprogrammers, these vocations would be very lucrative indeed.
Tarjei
http://www.uncletaz.com/
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Steve Premo"
Subject: Re: cult victim needing help-really
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 10:17:19 -0700
Tarjei Straume wrote:
In other words, Anthroposophy belongs in
the heap of cults and cult-like groups that produces the need
for exit counselling, perhaps deprogramming. That is what I call
bullshit.
Yes, I agree. The assertion that Anthroposophists
do not lead "normal" lives is also nonsense.
People who follow any religion or philosophy
for much of their lives and later reject that religion or philosophy
often have difficulty adjusting to the change. But this is different
from the problems posed in leaving a destructive cult, where
one has been subjected to mind-control techniques and so on.
I've seen no indication that that Anthroposophy is in the latter
category.
Another question arises from Dan's quoted
post: Who is going around leading people to believe that Anthroposophy
would be something it is not? I, for one, am not doing this.
Well, there are those who would have us believe
that Anthroposophy is a reliable source of information about
the nature of the material world, and I, personally, believe
that it is not.
Anthroposophy can only be defined as a
cult or cult-like movement because of beliefs and theories that
seem weird or strange. (Even here, the Catholc Immaculate Conception
of Mary is a fair match.)
Yeah, I don't think that it is any more weird
than Christianity. And while I doubt that Steiner was correct
about the afterlife, his ideas are less bizarre than the Christian
concepts of sin, salvation, heaven, and hell.
Steve Premo -- Santa Cruz, California
"Minutus cantorum, minutus balorum, minutus carbonata descendum
pantorum." (A little song, a little dance, a little seltzer
down your pants.)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Daniel Sabsay
Subject: Re: cult victim needing help-really
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 12:53:20 -0800
Tarjei Straume wrote
If this website is supposed to be *the
result of* a destructive philosophy, I don't see the connection.
Naturally you wouldn't, that's the nature
of belief in anthroposophy.
Is it *destructive* to approach natural-scientific
questions from an anthroposophical perspective?
The rejection of the germ theory of disease
based on Steiner's revelations is a small indication that the
person is no longer a trustworthy discussant of natural-scientific
questions.
-- Daniel
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Daniel Sabsay, president "Ignorance is the ultimate renewable
resource"
East Bay Skeptics Society http://www.eb-skeptics.org
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Tarjei Straume
Subject: Re: cult victim needing help-really
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 23:40:38 +0100
I wrote (about Sune's website):
If this website is supposed to be *the
result of* a destructive philosophy, I don't see the connection.
Daniel wrote:
Naturally you wouldn't, that's the nature
of belief in anthroposophy.
Is it *destructive* to approach natural-scientific
questions from an anthroposophical perspective?
The rejection of the germ theory of disease
based on Steiner's revelations is a small indication that the
person is no longer a trustworthy discussant of natural-scientific
questions.
First of all, what you call the rejection
of the germ theory based on Steiner seems to be a misapprehension,
a twisting of the facts. I have read references to infectious
diseases by Steiner, and he does not claim that germs are not
involved. As a matter of fact, bacteria were known in India thousands
of years ago. I have read a text translated from Sanscrit where
microscopic organisms, "manifestations of evil spirits"
are described. (If I find the reference to this, I'll post it.)
Even if germs are the immediate cause of infectious
diseases, they may be symptoms of still deeper causes. The questioning
of a given theory may be an indication of untrustworthiness to
you, but that seems to be a conclusion reached without examining
the plausibility of an alternative, or expanded, theory.
You still have not explained what is *destructive*
about Sune's website or about Anthroposophy as a philosophy,
and why this is so, but that is the nature of prejudice and frivolous
statements.
Tarjei
http://www.uncletaz.com/
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Amy An
Subject: what is the point?
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 16:37:58 -0500
Hello to all,
I still don't get what this list is all about.
OK you think Steiner was wrong and that current schools may lie
and misinform parents. But how does this list help? What is it
you want anyway? I have the same problems with my local public
school that you do with Steiner. They don't change or adapt,
rely on received wisdom, fail to tell parents how they are socializing
children into their view of history, science etc (read any public
school textbooks lately?), and generally teach poor manners and
harm self esteem.
So what are you disputing if not my decision
to be a harmless weirdo?
On 27 Jan 99, at 2:45, Tarjei Straume wrote:
My question is this: Isn't being a harmless
weirdo a civil right?
Yes, it is, at least where religion is
concerned.
And don't we have the the perfect right
to have our own weird schools with weird teachers for our very
own weird children?
Absolutely. I don't think anyone's disputing
that.
Steve Premo -- Santa Cruz, California
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Steve Premo"
Subject: Re: what is the point?
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 16:50:08 -0700
On 27 Jan 99, at 16:37, Amy An wrote:
I still don't get what this list is all
about.
It's a forum for discussing Waldorf education.
Seems pretty simple to me.
Now, the Waldorf list is also a forum for
discussing Waldorf education, but the difference is that this
list allows critical comments, while the Waldorf list does not.
But how does this list help? What is it
you want anyway?
Different people want different things. Personally,
I'm not out to change the world; what I want is interesting discussion.
What do you want, Amy?
So what are you disputing if not my decision
to be a harmless weirdo?
My purpose in being on the list is not to
dispute anything; it's to discuss ideas. That doesn't mean that
I agree with everything, though. Put forth an idea and if I dispute
it, I'll let you know. <g>
Really, Amy, I'm not sure what you're asking.
The purpose of email lists is to discuss things. What other answer
are you looking for?
Steve Premo -- Santa Cruz, California
"Minutus cantorum, minutus balorum, minutus carbonata descendum
pantorum."
(A little song, a little dance, a little seltzer down your pants.)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Tarjei Straume
Subject: Re: what is the point?
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 00:57:39 +0100
Amy An wrote:
Hello to all,
I still don't get what this list is all
about. OK you think Steiner was wrong and that current schools
may lie and misinform parents. But how does this list help? What
is it you want anyway? I have the same problems with my local
public school that you do with Steiner. They don't change or
adapt, rely on received wisdom, fail to tell parents how they
are socializing children into their view of history, science
etc (read any public school textbooks lately?), and generally
teach poor manners and harm self esteem.
It is my personal impression that "the
concern over Waldorf schools" may be part and parcel of
a larger issue that is difficult to get a handle on because of
its complexity. It's the influence of New Age concepts and ideas
into every area of life, including education, medicine, and natural
science. These New Age concepts are not always easy to identify
what their sources are concerned.
During the last couple of years, I have found
myself in a peculiar situation by joining forces with secular
humanists against Scientology while at the same time defending
Anthroposophy from the same kind of criticism, sometimes from
the same quarters. The reason for this is that I view these two
systems as being based upon diametrically opposite ethical ideals.
My view of Steiner's cosmology as true and Hubbard's space opera
as fictitious nonsense is beside the point. The default secular-humanist
view is that this is all nonsense. That is why I suggest we take
a look at the code of ethics.
Public criticism of Waldorf, Anthroposophy
and Steiner is uneventful in the sense that nobody takes you
to court for it, nobody tries to silence or censor such criticism.
From a secular-humanist, atheist perspective,
all religious philosophies represent irrational, meaning absurd,
perspectives on life and the universe. Because "Old Age"
religion makes a clear and irrevocable distinction between faith
and knowledge, between subjective belief and objective science,
it poses no threat to the cultural status quo. When certain sciences
and fields of scientific research become spiritualized, somehow
blending religion with it, those who fear for the future papacy
of "The Scientific Community" will for natural reasons
get defensive. Because if New Age should come to dominate Western
culture in the future, atheism as a logical conclusion from the
observation of natural-scientific phenomena would no longer be
taken for granted.
The solution to this perceived threat is to
give words like "pseudo-" like in "pseudo-science"
a stamp of authoritative disapproval from the Scientific Community.
When such stamps of disapproval are ignored or disrespected and
the pseudo-sciences, including branches of alternative medicine,
gain foothold and respectability nevertheless, the desire arises
to take stronger measures against the trend, using courts and
law enforcement and politics and what have you.
The concern over Waldorf schools is part of
this larger picture, because it is not only a question of these
schools receiving funding from the taxpayers, but about pedagogic
ideas spreading from Waldorf into public schools, somehow infecting
secular-humanist children with this New Age virus.
This is interesting - very interesting - because
I am looking for Scientology infiltration of public schools,
of Waldorf schools, of business and community. The reason is
that from my point of view, Scientology is morally corrupt while
Anthroposophy fosters love, honesty, and a yearning for wisdom
and spiritual truth. Still, Anthroposophy needs to be criticized
and scrutinized, but it may sometimes be difficult to counter
such criticism if it is built on misunderstandings and misreadings.
Personally, I encourage controversy what science
is concerned in connection with Anthroposophy. I am less tolerant
when I see false statements about Anthroposophy and morals, for
obvious reasons.
Cheers,
Tarjei
http://www.uncletaz.com/
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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