Peter F Chimes In
From: Tarjei Straume
Date: Sat Jan 24, 2004 8:03 am
Subject: Peter F chimes in
On the WC list, Peter Farrell writes a comment
to our previous thread about Rudolf Steiner's moral character,
which he appends to Peter Staudenmaier's tirade about Daniel
and myself twisting Diana's original argument about Steiner opposing
(speaking against) modern science. Farrell's main theme is his
argument against the notion that Rudolf Steiner's personal
moral character was a noble one, and with this in mind, he seeks
to establish that Steiner was a dishonest man.
Jan 23, Peter Farrell writes:
Peter Staudenmaier discussed
some of the pitfall's Diana Winters encountered in trying to
talk to Anthroposophists about science elsewhere. I would like
to draw your attention to something below about Einstein that
Peter has extracted for us.
Peter S wrote
He considered Einstein's theories a prime example of "extreme
abstraction" which has "deviated from actuality".
and Peter pointed to here where the full text may be found
http://wn.elib.com/Steiner/Lectures/19200424p01.html
Peter F. continues. Within this lecture the first example that
Steiner uses as an argument against Einstein concerns various
stones and a person in a box far away from any other object (such
as a planet). This is a rudimentary description of one of the
essential ideas in Einstein's theory of general relativity which
is about the indistinguishability of gravity and acceleration.
The time this lecture was given (1918) predates the first serious
experimental test of General Relativity by Eddington in 1919
(see http://www.firstscience.com/site/articles/coles.asp for
a popular account). Many other tests have been carried out in
the subsequent 85 years. Was it ok for Steiner to argue in 1918
that Einstein's theories differed from the actual before this
test?
Of course it was "OK" for Steiner
to argue the way he did in this lecture. In this particular context,
it makes no difference whether or not Einstein's theories had
been tested. Steiner cites Einstein as an example of how deeply
humanity has sunk into the abstractions of Maya, the great illusion
of the physical universe. What needs to be kept in mind is that
Rudolf Steiner was, more than anything else, a proclaimer of
the Christ, and one of the most crucial utterances by Christ
was, "My kingdom is not of this world." (John 18:36).
So Farrell might as well ask if it was OK for Jesus Christ to
argue that the reality of Caesar differed from the reality of
actual humanity: the kingdom within.
This point seems to be completely lost on
Farrell when he reads the lecture at hand. Here are a few pointers:
".....present-day man
has entirely lost consciousness of the fact that that which belongs
to the whole man can no more be discovered in the physical world
than in the visible stellar world. For it is absolutely impossible
to gain a true perception even of the visible starry heavens,
unless man combines with the outer physical life the super-physical
in his considerations - that super-physical part of his life
through which he passes between death and re-birth."
"The knowledge gained
through anatomy and physiology is not real knowledge, for we
do not by means of this investigation look into the actual interior
of man; it is an illusion to believe that we do."
"Now you will perhaps
say that this world which we view during the time between death
and re-birth must be a very small one indeed. But spatial dimensions
do not count at all. It is the fullness or poverty of the content
that matters, not the size. If we combine all we observe in the
mineral, plant and animal kingdoms, and add thereto the starry
heavens, it would not compare in richness with the mysteries
within Man himself. The real process is approximately as follows.
We lose the structural forces of the head when we pass over in
death. They have completed their office. But then the spiritual
world takes up the structural forces of the remaining (lower)
organism, which from being inner experience belong now to the
periphery, and transforms them in such a way that when the time
is ripe, from out of the spiritual world the human head is determined
in the womb of the mother."
These are some of Steiner's remarks before
he moves on to a description of abstract physics - abstract in
the sense that it tells us nothing about the Real Man between
death and rebirth, and between falling asleep and awakening.
When the human being is outside his body in sleep or after death,
he is interacting with the planets and the stars, the heavenly
bodies, as living beings. Through external physical science,
we are seduced through various abstractions to believe that the
universe consists primarily of dead matter, except for the theory
that there may be "life out there" - bacteria or unheard-of
monsters or techno-initiates or whatever. Einstein himself made
a lot of "thought experiments" as he called them, about
time travel and what have you. His ideas have revolutionized
our culture and inspired all kinds of Hollywood fantasies as
well. That does not mean that his theories cannot be tested and
put into practice, which is happening at NASA, but Steiner's
proclamation of the Spirit, and Christ's proclamation of the
Kingdom, these are not of Einstein's and NASA's world. According
to Steiner, there is nothing physical in outer space beyond the
earth, but the lights we see in the sky as stars are living beings
reaching out to us with love. When we look to the sun, we look
out of space into the flow of time, whence Christ was born, who
gave time back to man, who had become a space being. In other
words, everything we imagine and theorize about the heavenly
bodies, and make grand plans about at NASA, are illusions, because
the real universe is inside ourselves.
It is in this context we must understand Steiner's
approach to Einstein in this particular lecture:
"Abstraction is deeply
rooted in our ordinary conception of the planetary system, and
it produces today some very strange results. For example, a great
deal of popular literature is permeated with glorification of
an idea which originates from Einstein."
Of course everything I have pointed out here
about the kingdom within and life among the stars between death
and rebirth is totally lost on an arch-materialist who is exclusively
looking for a materialistic-mechanical critique of Einstein's
theory and its tests. So he misses altogether what Steiner is
saying in this lecture, that our ordinary conception of the planetary
system is so abstract and materialistic that we have lost the
ability to understand our real inner relationship to the cosmos.
And when this point is completely lost to a "critical"
reader, he even contrives to call it dishonesty.
Peter Farrell:
Is it still ok for Anthroposophists
to accept these arguments in the years after?
Of course it is, but personally, I prefer
to update them by taking a sharp look at what is happening in
science and technology today, at NASA, in science fiction movies
from Hollywood and so on. Like about ten years ago when a couple
of brain surgeons in San Diego claimed to have discovered that
the human experience of an "I" is an illusion chemically
produced by a certain spot in the brain. This was in Newsweek
or Time Magazine, and the reader's letters followed in plenty
from universities and churches and Buddhists and philosophers
and so on. And a sharp PLANS cultist would naturally say that
of course, those guys are brain surgeons and they know this stuff
better than anybody else, and they have proven Nietzsche right
about God being dead, so let's bury that stupid deity once and
for all and show the finger to the anthro's while we're at it.
Peter Farrell:
Steiner also talked about
Einstein's theory of special relativity (that's the one with
time dilation and the twin paradox and things getting shorter
in the direction of travel and so on) in the same lectures that
Peter S has quoted from. At the time of these lectures by Steiner
(1918) there had been numerous experimental tests of special
relativity (some examples are available here http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/Relativity/SR/experiments.html#2. early experiments).
Those experimental tests do not make the abstract
materialistic world-conception (that Steiner is getting at) less
illusory. What is currently being dug up from Mars does not make
it all less illusory. And it is precisely when such illusions
get a strong foothold in our culture to the point of upstaging
the "kingdom within" entirely, that the results can
be sinister and dangerous. I'm not only talking about the revolutionary
development of weaponry during the last hundred years here, but
the fact that so much of scientific research has been hijacked
by the military-industrial complex, including NASA.
Steiner did point out that we need these illusion
during our present stage of consciousness evolution, but that
it is very important to keep in mind that they are indeed illusions.
Peter Farrell:
The reason I bring these
issues up concerns another thread in anthroposphy tomorrow which
concerned Steiner's personal moral character. It is argued (correctly
in my view but others may differ) that whether Steiner was a
sado masochist or not has no bearing on the value of his scientific
or philosophical writings.
This argument is correct in Farrell's view?
In other words, he would have no compunctions about learning
philosophy from a sado-masochist? As for science, he would have
mo moral scruples about adopting and continuing medical research
originating from Nazi concentration camps?
Peter Farrell:
Honesty is a different
matter. If Steiner was dishonest (and I believe this can be demonstrated
in his writings and recorded lectures) then it can only be through
independent verification (or falsification) of each his claims
that we can judge his work in contradiction to the claim available
at the Steiner archive:
"No person is qualified to form a judgment on the contents
of this work, who has not acquired - through the School of Spiritual
Science itself or in an equivalent manner recognized by the School
of Spiritual Science - the requisite preliminary knowledge."
The preposterous falsifications of Steiner's
ideas by the PLANS-WC cult demonstrate the wisdom behind these
honest words. The members of PLANS and their cohorts on
the WC have proven time and time again that they are utterly
disqualified to form any judgement on the contents of Rudolf
Steiner's works.
Peter Farrell:
The argument for Steiner's
dishonesty comes in two parts. Firstly there are examples, particularly
where Steiner is lecturing to people who are not educated in
the sciences where he misleads them on topics about which Steiner
was evidently well read (the lecture on Einstein in "From
Elephants to Einstein" is a good example of this), presumably
for the purposes of convincing them to be Anthroposophists.
This is another example of how grotesquely
Steiner's intentions can be twisted. Steiner's intention was
not to convince anybody to "be anthroposophists" but
to reveal to them the reality of the Christ and the Gospels.
And precisely because the scientific mode of thinking has been
taking hold of humanity since the 1840's, when classical education
was replaced by technical-scientific education, and thus weakened
the power of religious faith considerably, Steiner offered a
new path to the Christ based upon a mode of thinking derived
from the disciplines developed through scientific endeavor.
Farrell, however, is apparently blind to all
this.
Peter Farrell:
Secondly, the instructions
given to the organisers of Waldorf schools to keep the true nature
of them from the parents and children who are participating.
This is of course a clear example of the end justifying the means.
Perhaps a Waldorf-oriented subscriber to this
list can comment on what is here said about instructions given
to the organisers of Waldorf schools.
Cheers,
Tarjei Straume
http://www.uncletaz.com/anthrocritics.html
"The worst readers are
those who proceed like plundering soldiers: they pick up a few
things they use, soil and confuse the rest, and blaspheme the
whole." - Friedrich Nietzsche, Mixed
Opinions and Maxims
...................................................................................................................................
From: holderlin66
Date: Sat Jan 24, 2004 8:20 pm
Subject: Science and Discernment
--- In [email protected],
Tarjei Straume wrote:
That does not mean that his theories cannot
be tested and put into practice, which is happening at NASA,
but Steiner's proclamation of the Spirit, and Christ's proclamation
of the Kingdom, these are not of Einstein's and NASA's world.
According to Steiner, there is nothing physical in outer space
beyond the earth, but the lights we see in the sky as stars are
living beings reaching out to us with love. When we look to the
sun, we look out of space into the flow of time, whence Christ
was born, who gave time back to man, who had become a space being.
In other words, everything we imagine and theorize about the
heavenly bodies, and make grand plans about at NASA, are illusions,
because the real universe is inside ourselves.
Bradford comments;
Well I have had this happen before; my fingers
slip and the entire post vanishes. I wish I knew how to get that
lost, etherically eaten, exercise in thought back, but alas.
This is my second attempt. Everything is always an attempt. I
can remember what I was outlining. It had to do with Einstein
- TiMe - The Philadelphia Experiment - Astral Body - Karma and
Living Etheric lock in to TIme SPace.
I kind of began looking at Dr. Steiner standing
in Occult Science at the edge of the Universe. Don't laugh just
yet. I mean by this, that as far as Earth Evolution - Moon Evolution
= Sun Evolution and Saturn Evolution was concerned, Steiner was
able to loosen his research faculties and follow the first inception
of Physical Idea of Man, back to the Saturn Evolution to the
point where Man was NOT.
Mind you, Steiner really describes a frightening
Time Experience. I have wandered back to how Victor Hugo made
his way, during his Hebrides Initiation to the Edge of Saturn
- The far Planet Consciousness of Saturn not the primal origins
of Man. Hugo's experience was where Time Beings filter all that
mighty cultures and individuals produce that splatter on the
far rings of Saturns Wall of Time. Hugo describes this Wall where
layer upon layer of human efforts, like a collosal layer cake,
lie like wasted relics in Times Heap. For Hugo it was hardly
an abstract fantasy. It was the nature of Initation on the lonely
Far Point of the Hebrides, before Hugo became Hugo, that took
Hugo beyond, beyond.
But Steiner stood at the place, the precipice
of where Man is not. The edge of the Nothiningness that beyond
which, the very rudiments of the idea of the physical human seed
thought...was not! It is hard to picture this in Time. Going
back into Time. Being a witness to Time. This indeed out Einstein's
Einstein, because Einstein is just dealing with the fatal, final
results of matter as we see it and Time and Space as we see it
now. Now that appears very abstract, but let me bring it closer
to home.
PSYOPS, a covert group that do a great deal
of mischief in the Military Industrial Complex, practice and
teach Remote viewing techniques. On one hand we can consider
what Astral Projection means, but Steiner went well beyond Astral
Projection. One doesn't know if a God, or the very Astral Body
of Christ, which Steiner had operating in him, held Steiner at
the edge of BEFORE THIS HUMANITY DOES NOT EXIST, and where the
first germ of Something like us, begins. Because Steiner took
his Consciousness out that far. We have every right to consider
the logic of Occult Science an Outline as the finest work of
Science every contributed to human history. Flat Out, You can't
Touch This!
In my other post I didn't really explore the
above in exactly the same way. Time is a reality and Space is
a reality and these all arose before we started to get on with
this Galactic -Zodiacal - Planetary Complex we have now. Science
might get us to Stephen Hawkings theories, mountains of theories,
but that would not explain mineral; plant; animal; and human
demarcations and developments. But to explain mineral - plant
- animal - Human and having this glove, this hand inside the
glove, Ego-Astral-Etheric-Physical structure means that it took
these great sweeps of Time-Warmth-Space before our senses could
sit so cleverly in what we now call "Lets send tin cans
to Mars". Therefore flat out Science is looking to Spiritual
Science to complete the picture.
In the previous post I went into explanations
of how Einstein and Tesla apparently, in Navy Legend, contributed
to "The Philadelphia Experiment". My point was that
in attempts of move whole navies behind enemy lines, Matter -
without the consideration that the Sailors in the experiment
had etheric and astral bodies as well as physical bodies - found
that transfering dead matter is one thing, but lifting the entire
Time Body out of Time or Space had grave, serious and legendary
effects on plopping sailors down in the middle of metal walls
or half stuck in the decks of ships and, that their astral bodies
ignited.. as I said, is legendary. But it raises questions, real
questions.
But from this, I asked the question of how
can one move the physical, atomic table, as to say disassemble
the human being's unique atomic structure and re-assemble it
again in another spot. We call this piece of Science Fiction
"Beam Me Aboard". The problems are not just the atomic
table of elements, yet each person has a unique composition that
- Listen carefully - we would entrust to a computer to reassemble
us again. Now here are the two points I wanted to make in my
first attempt.
Firstly, after Christ is murdered and his
body, disappears, He reappears in a solid physical form making
a beach fire and a fish fry for the Disciples. He walks along
a road, has a meal, speaks, can be touched, and feels weight,
density, and fleshlike. He isn't walking like a Robot or Terminator
3. He appears this way several times. In other words Matter was
at Christ's discretion. Christ had discretionary use, from out
of His Higher Spiritual Faculties, specific matter co-ordination.
This is irksome to Science. Yet it is part of everything science
desires, but touching spiritual science is like poison.
Steiner is hated because he takes the arbitrary
fun out of walking blindly and bouncing off the walls of creation,
oblivious of Beings who would shatter him, and ending up in the
Matrix wastebasket of failed human missions. In other words a
lot of Beings want humanity to get through this trial so that
the ghosts in the machine don't eat us. So people hate Steiner
because he set down some basic ground rules and really reviewed
the play manuals of science.
This type of discretionary use of assembling
and disassembling the whole construct of a human being that the
Christ had, is disturbing. Science tries in every which way to
wiggle around the issue. Science Fiction tries to find any which
way to express some idea like this. It isn't satisfied with what
Spiritual Science has to say about how the human form is not
merely matter. Not merely Soul and not merely Spirit, but it
has technical scientific relationships to the etheric world,
and the astral world. Not only this, but Science does like the
idea that humanity will develop higher and higher faculties.
Science likes, loves and wallows in its current Sense Media Infatuation
with itself.
Now it may be alright to some that some computer
should be able to assemble and disassemble us or beings, like
in "The Fly" but, as you know, there are concrete glitches.
Besides you have to put your trust in a power source that is
not humanistically, Goetheanistically and Scientifically discretionary
towards your own Karma, Astral and I AM structure. That is why,
currently, the Gods invented Reincarnation as a way to transfer
fully developed Star Equations, us.
Secondly, in my previous attempt, lost, I
brought up the Fission Factor. This fission and fusion factor
as Science is very disturbing. Currently we follow the great
Prophet Oppenheimer, probably next to Nietzsche, one of Ahriman's
favorite Sons of the Revolution. Oppenheimer is the St. Paul
of Ahriman and Nietzsche is the Moses of the Ahrimanic testament.
Thus Spake (mockingly) Zarathustra. (many of you probably don't
see the humor in Ahriman's title.)
When Christ Sweated Blood and the Transfiguration
overshadowed the disciples, Christ was directly under the fission
factor of containing within His Jesus designed and Zarathustrian
and Buddha maintained higher bodies, an infusion of Love Bestowed,
discretionary Light transforming and re-making of = Listen to
This = Remaking of the conditions of Saturn - Sun - Moon and
Earth evolution.
The result of this evolution was Humanity
and Death. All well and good. But in the future humanity would
be able to grasp, and now we return to all the details of Science
- that the higher being of Man will be able to develop and contain
the riddle of the atomic table. In other words Christ was the
Pivotal point where Matter was ground down to the basement of
the bones, and humanity given the upward potential to master
matter and the atomic table through the development of their
higher faculties.
The Father Forces gave Christ and Christ gave
to the germinating form of the human being, carried from Saturn
- physical germ; Sun - etheric germ; Moon - Astral germ; Earth
- Ego seed, the ability to pollinate and remake himself in the
model that Christ had before Him. Namely Jesus. We even take
the Science of this incubation process of the Christ in a human
form, as a three year incubation until down to the very marrow
of the bones, Jesus is sweating blood, super heated, Life Spirit
full nuclear reaction of Love and containing the fission forces
of the super Father origins of matter itself, within a single
human form. Now this is Science.
We ask, how deeply did Spirit Consciously
penetrate matter? But how, how would WC or PS or Stephen Hawkings
be able to get any of this super fusion in the systems of the
I AM - Spirit Self - Life Spirit and Spirit Man? Still, Science
facts are plodding along and we with our Spiritual Science are
plodding along with every new revelation of Science. However
the underlying themes of materialism are how can I live forever;
Prosperity; and have all Power and Glory at my fingertips? Fairly
selfish questions we crave.
The Christ Event is the greatest event in
the Science of Matter ever achieved. The levels of Spiritual
development that allowed the Astral body to be fully explored,
the etheric body to be fully explored, brings to our understanding
that which Science and Critics cannot get. That in the actual
Physical body is an aspect of Spirit Man; In the actual Etheric
body, which the plants have is an aspect of Life Spirit; In the
actual Astral body that the animals have and that includes modest
astral projection is the germinal Spirit Self. Science has gathered
fragments of the mystery of matter but it must smash atoms to
bring about Fission. Only Love can assemble and disassemble beings.
Unless Ahriman and the Critics try to rip nature of its socket
with cloning.
Christ did not have to smash atoms to use
the atomic table in a discretionary authority over and Master,
as well, down to the very bones of gravity itself, matter. Does
that make the human being the greatest lab experiment ever devised?
It does. Is it greater than the nuclear bomb? It is because what
could be more astonishing than the discretionary use of the full
atomic table without destruction? Is such an event a WE, look
at the bomb event? No.. It is an I AM a loving component of creation
event.
Bradford
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