Buddhist Christians?
Responding to John Morehead,
an evangelical expert on the New Age cult of Anthroposophy, who
says that Buddhism and Christianity are incompatible.
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From: John & Wendy Morehead
Subject: Buddhist Christians?
Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 08:06:19
At 01:37 PM 4/16/99 +0200, you wrote:
Your attack against esoteric Christianity
is based in part on the allegation that it is not logical. As
an example of this, you claim that subscribing to Buddhism and
Christianity at the same time, which is the essence of anthrosophical,
esoteric Christianity, is an impossibility because of self-contradiction.
Millions of people think otherwise, but because your logic is
flawed, you fail to appreciate their point of view. For the same
reason, you attack Catholic anthroposophists by saying that they
cannot and should not have such a philosophy.
I understand your view. Allow me to quote
a relevant passage from an extremely intelligent and compassionate
individual to allow you, and others on this list, to determine
the application of the passage to this discussion, and who is
using flawed logic.
"To sum up all that
we've discussed, I feel there is tremendous convergence and a
potential for mutual enrichment through dialogue between the
Buddhist and Christian tradition, especially in the areas of
ethics and spiritual practice, such as the practices of compassion,
love, meditation, and the enhancement of tolerance. And I feel
that this dialogue could go very far and reach a deep level of
understanding. But when it comes to a philosophical or metaphysical
dialogue I feel that we must part company. The entire Buddhist
worldview is based on a philosophical standpoint in which the
central thought is the principle of interdependence, how all
things and events come into being purely as a result of interaction
between causes and conditions. Within that philosophical worldview
it is impossible to have any room for an atemporal, eternal,
absolute truth. Nor is it possible to accommodate the concept
of a divine Creation. Similarly, for a Christian whose entire
metaphysical worldview is based in belief in the Creation and
a divine Creator, the idea that all things and events arise out
of mere interaction between causes and conditinos has no place
within that worldview. So in the realm of metaphysics it becomes
problematic at a certain point, and the two traditions must diverge."
The author of this quote?: His Holiness
the Dalai Lama in _The Good Heart_ (Wisdom, 1996), 81-82.
The Dalai Lama then went on to state, "The
conceptions of God and Creation are a point of departure between
Buddhists and Christians" (55), and that "If you are
Christian it is better to develop spiritually within your religion
and be a genuine, good Christian. If you are a Buddhist, be a
genuine Buddhist" (46). He then used illustrated his feelings
here by quoting a Tibetan expression, which says, "Don't
try to put a yak's head on a sheep's body" (105).
John Morehead
=========================
John W. Morehead
Executive Vice President
TruthQuest Institute
P.O. Box 227
Loomis, CA 95650
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From: Tarjei Straume
Subject: Re: Buddhist Christians?
Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 18:51:01 +0200
John Morehead wrote:
I understand your view. Allow me to quote
a relevant passage from an extremely intelligent and compassionate
individual to allow you, and others on this list, to determine
the application of the passage to this discussion, and who is
using flawed logic.
Not all believers in Buddhism have the same
views as the Dalai Lama. That does not mean that they are less
intelligent.
According to evangelical logic, a Christian
Buddhist would be closer to salvation than a pure Buddhist, because
the latter does not have a conscious, personal relationship to
the Risen Christ. When you prefer the latter to the former, you
are contradicting yourself as far as the logic of evangelical
Christianity is concerned.
Cheers
Tarjei Straume
Greetings from Uncle Taz
http://www.uncletaz.com/
Anarchosophy, anarchism, anthroposophy, occultism,
Christianity, poetry,
plays, library, articles, galleries, marijuana, criminality,
death, skulls,
skeletons, banners, links, links, links. Big section in Norwegian.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: John & Wendy Morehead
Subject: Re: Buddhist Christians?
Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 13:02:50
At 06:51 PM 4/16/99 +0200, you wrote:
By way of review, I quoted one of the premier
Buddhist thinkers, the Dalai Lama, who I would argue has more
of a philosophical understanding of Buddhism than does the average
Western "Buddhist Christian." The Dalai Lama stated
that Buddhism and Christianity are not compatible, thus destroying
the notion that one can be both a Buddhist and a Christian at
the same time. In the face of this cogent critique presented
by a Buddhist (thus using "his" logic and not "mine"),
In response Tarjei stated:
Not all believers in Buddhism have the
same views as the Dalai Lama. That does not mean that they are
less intelligent.
My response to this statement:
I didn't say those who disagree with the Dalai
Lama were less intelligent, just contradictory and incoherent.
Even the greatest of philosophers in human history have made
errors in reasoning, as any course in logical thinking will point
out.
Tarjei continues:
According to evangelical logic, a Christian
Buddhist would be closer to salvation than a pure Buddhist, because
the latter does not have a conscious, personal relationship to
the Risen Christ. When you prefer the latter to the former, you
are contradicting yourself as far as the logic of evangelical
Christianity is concerned.
Tarjei, there is no such thing as evangelical
logic, as opposed to Buddhist logic, anthroposophical logic,
etc. There's simply logic, and we all use it every day, even
those who deny it exists or is applicable to religious truth
claims. I've stated this before and you have not refuted it.
Concerning the application of an alleged evangelical
logic, you completely missed the point of the Dalai Lama! Because
Buddhism and Christianity teach foundationally different, and
contradictory notions regarding a Creator and creation, they
cannot be synthesized to arrive at a Christian Buddhism. Now
since you didn't comment on this point I can only infer that
either 1) you ignored it, or 2) you personally acknowledge the
inconsistency in your view and chose not to acknowledge it publicly
in this list. That is fine, but let's not get off on rabbit trails
about "evangelical logic" while not addressing the
very important points raised by the Dalai Lama.
Would you be so kind as to logically refute
the clear statements of the Dalai Lama, or acknowledge that the
concept of Christian Buddhism is contradictory and incoherent,
representing two separate and irreconcilable spiritual paths?
John Morehead
=========================
John W. Morehead
Executive Vice President
TruthQuest Institute
P.O. Box 227
Loomis, CA 95650
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From: Tarjei Straume
Subject: Re: Buddhist Christians?
Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 00:07:59 +0200
John Morehead wrote:
I didn't say those who disagree with the
Dalai Lama were less intelligent, just contradictory and incoherent.
Which would pre-suppose the absence of logical
thinking, i.e. intelligence.
Even the greatest of philosophers in human
history have made errors in reasoning, as any course in logical
thinking will point out.
Tarjei continues:
According to evangelical logic, a Christian
Buddhist would be closer to salvation than a pure Buddhist, because
the latter does not have a conscious, personal relationship to
the Risen Christ. When you prefer the latter to the former, you
are contradicting yourself as far as the logic of evangelical
Christianity is concerned.
Tarjei, there is no such thing as evangelical
logic, as opposed to Buddhist logic, anthroposophical logic,
etc. There's simply logic, and we all use it every day, even
those who deny it exists or is applicable to religious truth
claims. I've stated this before and you have not refuted it.
There are different lines of reasoning, John.
What you are doing is putting your own line of reaoning on a
pedestal, and passing judgement upon those who think differently,
whom you conveniently endow with lesser equipped brains than
your own. This is reminiscent of intellectual-religious fascism,
because when you fail to apprenhend the logic behind a line of
reasoning that opposes yours, your are closing down your comprehension
process when listening or reading. A perfect example of this
was your failure to comprehend what I said about Steiner's views
about the resurrection of Christ.
Concerning the application of an alleged
evangelical logic, you completely missed the point of the Dalai
Lama! Because Buddhism and Christianity teach foundationally
different, and contradictory notions regarding a Creator and
creation, they cannot be synthesized to arrive at a Christian
Buddhism.
I have not said that you would arrive at Christian
Buddhism from that angle. That does not mean that you cannot
do so from another.
Now since you didn't comment on this point
I can only infer that either 1) you ignored it, or 2) you personally
acknowledge the inconsistency in your view and chose not to acknowledge
it publicly in this list. That is fine, but let's not get off
on rabbit trails about "evangelical logic" while not
addressing the very important points raised by the Dalai Lama.
The Dalai Lama and your agreement with him
has no bearing whatsoever on the harmoneous synthesis of Buddhism
and Christianity that is found in Anthroposophy. In this synthesis,
there is no inconsistency.
You are perfectly free to infer whatever you
want. I have already seen what kind of wild goose-chases your
"logic" can lead to. But I won't call you a liar again.
I'm beginning to understand.
Would you be so kind as to logically refute
the clear statements of the Dalai Lama, or acknowledge that the
concept of Christian Buddhism is contradictory and incoherent,
representing two separate and irreconcilable spiritual paths?
No, John, I won't be so kind. The Dalai Lama
has an approach to Buddhism that for him excludes a synthesis
with Christianity. Anthroposophists have a different approach
that does not exclude this. It is not necessary to refute anyone's
statement for that reason - especially in the religious realm.
Tarjei Straume
Greetings from Uncle Taz
http://www.uncletaz.com/
Anarchosophy, anarchism, anthroposophy, occultism,
Christianity, poetry,
plays, library, articles, galleries, marijuana, criminality,
death, skulls,
skeletons, banners, links, links, links. Big section in Norwegian.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: John & Wendy Morehead
Subject: Re: Buddhist Christians?
Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 09:56:15
At 12:07 AM 4/17/99 +0200, you wrote:
Since folks are apparently becoming less than
enchanged with the Tarjei-Morehead exchanges, I am prepared to
let these threads die, but I'd just like to get a couple of answers
IF I could.
Tarjei, there is no such thing as evangelical
logic, as opposed to Buddhist logic, anthroposophical logic,
etc. There's simply logic, and we all use it every day, even
those who deny it exists or is applicable to religious truth
claims. I've stated this before and you have not refuted it.
There are different lines of reasoning,
John. What you are doing is putting your own line of reaoning
on a pedestal, and passing judgement upon those who think differently...[snip]
One more time: there is no such thing as John's
logic. There is *our* logic and reasoning, which may or may not
be faulty. There is no other way around this issue, so let's
move on.
Concerning the application of an alleged
evangelical logic, you completely missed the point of the Dalai
Lama! Because Buddhism and Christianity teach foundationally
different, and contradictory notions regarding a Creator and
creation, they cannot be synthesized to arrive at a Christian
Buddhism.
I have not said that you would arrive at
Christian Buddhism from that angle. That does not mean that you
cannot do so from another.
How? To arrive at it from another angle, means
you have to deal with how this other angle might relate logically
to the Dalai Lama's "angle." That's what I'd like an
answer to.
The Dalai Lama and your agreement with
him has no bearing whatsoever on the harmoneous synthesis of
Buddhism and Christianity that is found in Anthroposophy. In
this synthesis, there is no inconsistency.
Fine. How does Anthroposophy synthesize Buddhism
and Christianity so that there is no inconsistency? I am honestly
interested in how Anthroposophists might view this, and I'm not
trying to be a pest. For the sake of the list, please feel free
to respond to me privately, Tarjei.
Best,
John Morehead
=========================
John W. Morehead
Executive Vice President
TruthQuest Institute
P.O. Box 227
Loomis, CA 95650
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Tarjei Straume
Subject: Re: Buddhist Christians?
Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 20:39:29 +0200
John Morehead wrote:
At 12:07 AM 4/17/99 +0200, you wrote:
Since folks are apparently becoming less
than enchanged with the Tarjei-Morehead exchanges, I am prepared
to let these threads die, but I'd just like to get a couple of
answers IF I could.
Tarjei, there is no such thing as evangelical
logic, as opposed to Buddhist logic, anthroposophical logic,
etc. There's simply logic, and we all use it every day, even
those who deny it exists or is applicable to religious truth
claims. I've stated this before and you have not refuted it.
There are different lines of reasoning,
John. What you are doing is putting your own line of reaoning
on a pedestal, and passing judgement upon those who think differently...[snip]
One more time: there is no such thing as
John's logic. There is *our* logic and reasoning, which may or
may not be faulty. There is no other way around this issue, so
let's move on.
Concerning the application of an alleged
evangelical logic, you completely missed the point of the Dalai
Lama! Because Buddhism and Christianity teach foundationally
different, and contradictory notions regarding a Creator and
creation, they cannot be synthesized to arrive at a Christian
Buddhism.
I have not said that you would arrive at
Christian Buddhism from that angle. That does not mean that you
cannot do so from another.
How? To arrive at it from another angle,
means you have to deal with how this other angle might relate
logically to the Dalai Lama's "angle." That's what
I'd like an answer to.
I have already recommended an excellent book
on this subject in another post: The RS lecture cycle "The
Gospel of St. Luke" (GA 114). This is not a convenient time
for me to begin reading the Dalai Lama. (It would be a more suitable
job for my commonlaw wife, who once had an audience with the
man with her two Tibetan sons, but she thinks my involvement
with the WC list is a waste of time, so I don't think she'll
oblige you either.)
The Dalai Lama and your agreement with
him has no bearing whatsoever on the harmoneous synthesis of
Buddhism and Christianity that is found in Anthroposophy. In
this synthesis, there is no inconsistency.
Fine. How does Anthroposophy synthesize
Buddhism and Christianity so that there is no inconsistency?
I am honestly interested in how Anthroposophists might view this,
and I'm not trying to be a pest. For the sake of the list, please
feel free to respond to me privately, Tarjei.
Check out the book sited above and related
literature. Another recommendation is "From Buddha to Christ"
(5 lectures), and for a synthesis of Hinduism and Christianity,
"The Baghavad Gita and the Epistles of Paul." I don't
have the GA references of these in front of me, but I think the
latter lectures were held in Finland.
Cheers
Tarjei Straume
Greetings from Uncle Taz
http://www.uncletaz.com/
Anarchosophy, anarchism, anthroposophy, occultism,
Christianity, poetry,
plays, library, articles, galleries, marijuana, criminality,
death, skulls,
skeletons, banners, links, links, links. Big section in Norwegian.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Dan Dugan
Subject: Re: Buddhist Christians?
Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 01:19:35 -0700
Tarjei, there is no such thing as evangelical
logic, as opposed to Buddhist logic, anthroposophical logic,
etc. There's simply logic, and we all use it every day, even
those who deny it exists or is applicable to religious truth
claims. I've stated this before and you have not refuted it.
Thank you, John!
-Dan Dugan
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