Learn Before you Leap -
Races in SWA
In this thread, Bob Jones
gives a disturbing description of anthroposophical behavior in
Wisconsin. As a matter of fact, mr. Jones deserved better treatment
than what I gave him - tired, cantankerous and sarcastic as I
had become from too much email and too many active threads at
the time.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: MomOf2Gals
Subject: Learn before you leap/races in SWA
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 14:10:37 EST
Waldorf Critics and -- dare I say, it? --
Enthusiasts!
I LOVE this list. I also am on the Steiner98
list, and I am way out of my depth there. The discussions are
much more esoteric, and I am not knowledgeable enough about them
to even participate. But this list is so much better. Thanks
to whoever created it.
I am, I must admit, surprised and a bit shocked
at the level of anger and outrage that seem to be coming from
some people who post here. My surprise comes from the fact that
these people were themselves surprised and shocked after enrolling
their kids in a Waldorf school and then discovering (in that
order!) that the schools were based on anthroposophy. Gee, I
would have thought that was a basic fact that would have been
obvious upon doing even the most basic research on any private
or independent school one might consider enrolling one's child
in!!!
My children's school makes no secret of its
anthroposophical origins -- in fact, the underpinning philosophy
is mentioned in all literature associated with the school's informational
packet, and numerous opportunities are given to parents to join
anthroposophical study groups, festival groups and the like!
No one feels forced to do so or an outcast for not doing so,
but the opportunities are there. My surprise comes usually from
the fact that more parents don't seem even INTERESTED in the
school's philosophical basis -- these people just treat the school
as any other independent school that is an alternative to Baltimore
City's failing public school system.
As for whether or not Waldorf schools should
hand out that lengthy explanation crafted by one of this list's
participants, disclosing the anthroposophical nature of the school
and its adherent's belief in reincarnation and karma, well, do
other independent schools hand out statements saying that they
treat their students as if they have NO SPIRITUAL NATURE, etc.
etc.? Do Catholic schools set out the tenets of Catholicism in
their literature, etc? You will answer, of course, that people
would expect at Catholic school to provide a Catholic education.
Well, I would counter that any parent who bothers to educate
him or herself even basically would understand that a Waldorf
school educates on the basis of anthroposophy! That's what a
Waldorf school is!!! Why that should surprise anyone surprises
me. But then, I am assuming that parents who care enough to seek
out special, independent schools and pay for them also take the
time to thoroughly educate themselves about the educational philosophy
of the school
I have been told that there are whole communities
where anthropops have ``taken over'' -- an example being some
village in Wisconsin. ``Taken over''? Such a choice of words
implies the use of force. I think the writer meant that a group
of like-minded people have chosen to live together in that community,
to operate businesses there and create a school there that jived
with their sensibilities. Why is this any different, or somehow
more unacceptable, than any community dense in a particular religion
or ethnicity? In Baltimore, we have a section of the city called
Little Italy where many people of Italian descent live, work
and run businesses. No one seems to think that is suspicious,
weird or odd. Why should the same not be true of people who,
because they embrace a certain worldview or religion (should
you want to call it that), choose to live in proximity and work
together? I think it's a find idea. I think we should all be
free to live and work where we want, and where we feel comfortable.
As to the fact that Waldorf teachers believe
in reincarnation, etc. -- well, I personally have no problem
with that (it's a spiritual system that makes great sense to
me, and is in fact supported by many Biblical scholars as being
consistent with the Bible). But even if you do have a problem
with it, be assured your child is not learning reincarnation
as a fact in the classroom. I brought the subject up one day
with my 3rd grader, when our neighbor died. I told her that I
believed that Mrs. White would be reborn someday as a baby, to
travel the road of life again and learn more and more. MY daughters
was astonished. She had never heard of that idea. I don't see
where the religion of the person teaching my child should be
any of my business, when you get right down to it, so long as
that teacher does not force that dogma onto my child. (In the
case of WE, however, many of us choose that education BECAUSE
our beliefs jive with those of the teachers, presuming they do
have those beliefs.)
I guess my astonishment basically comes from
the fact that a parent would not have already investigated the
underpinnings of WE before enrolling. I also am surprised at
how suspicious some people on this list sound: Do you really
think the schools try to hide their true nature until they get
your vulnerable children in their evil clutches, and then try
to convert them to some occult weirdness that includes lighting
candles and thanking Nature for our food before we have snack??
C'mon!!!!
Well, it's obvious where my sympathies lie.
I think we need more schools that respect children the way my
children are respected and nurtured at their Waldorf school.
*** One thing I wish someone would answer:
I have never heard the bit about anthroposophy's view on the
races of humanity. One of my daughters is Chinese. What, in a
nutshell, is the supposed view on the evolutionary spirituality
of the different races, and how would I expect this to effect
how my Asian daughter is viewed anthroposophically, versus how
my homemade ``white'' daughter is viewed?
-- Respectfully submitted by Lisa in Baltimore-
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Dan Dugan
Subject: Re: Learn before you leap/races in SWA
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 00:55:40 -0800
Lisa, you wrote (in part),
But this list is so much better. Thanks
to whoever created it.
You're welcome.
I am, I must admit, surprised and a bit
shocked at the level of anger and outrage that seem to be coming
from some people who post here. My surprise comes from the fact
that these people were themselves surprised and shocked after
enrolling their kids in a Waldorf school and then discovering
(in that order!) that the schools were based on anthroposophy.
Gee, I would have thought that was a basic fact that would have
been obvious upon doing even the most basic research on any private
or independent school one might consider enrolling one's child
in!!!
When I was at the open house, I saw Anthroposophical
books. I asked a teacher what that was about. She said that the
teachers study Steiner's philosophy, but that they only use his
methods in the classroom. Later experience showed that this was
not true.
My children's school makes no secret of
its anthroposophical origins -- in fact, the underpinning philosophy
is mentioned in all literature associated with the school's informational
packet,
Could you send me a copy of the packet, or
quote the revelatory text here?
and numerous opportunities are given to
parents to join anthroposophical study groups, festival groups
and the like! No one feels forced to do so or an outcast for
not doing so, but the opportunities are there. My surprise comes
usually from the fact that more parents don't seem even INTERESTED
in the school's philosophical basis -- these people just treat
the school as any other independent school that is an alternative
to Baltimore City's failing public school system.
As for whether or not Waldorf schools should
hand out that lengthy explanation crafted by one of this list's
participants, disclosing the anthroposophical nature of the school
and its adherent's belief in reincarnation and karma, well, do
other independent schools hand out statements saying that they
treat their students as if they have NO SPIRITUAL NATURE, etc.
etc.? Do Catholic schools set out the tenets of Catholicism in
their literature, etc? You will answer, of course, that people
would expect at Catholic school to provide a Catholic education.
Well, I would counter that any parent who bothers to educate
him or herself even basically would understand that a Waldorf
school educates on the basis of anthroposophy! That's what a
Waldorf school is!!! Why that should surprise anyone surprises
me. But then, I am assuming that parents who care enough to seek
out special, independent schools and pay for them also take the
time to thoroughly educate themselves about the educational philosophy
of the school.
Because they claim, as instructed by Steiner,
that there is no Anthroposophy in it. And this is not true. If
the San Francisco Waldorf school had described itself as a Steinerian
parochial school, I would not have been seduced.
<snip>
As to the fact that Waldorf teachers believe
in reincarnation, etc. -- well, I personally have no problem
with that (it's a spiritual system that makes great sense to
me, and is in fact supported by many Biblical scholars as being
consistent with the Bible). But even if you do have a problem
with it, be assured your child is not learning reincarnation
as a fact in the classroom. I brought the subject up one day
with my 3rd grader, when our neighbor died. I told her that I
believed that Mrs. White would be reborn someday as a baby, to
travel the road of life again and learn more and more. MY daughters
was astonished. She had never heard of that idea.
If the teachers are doing their job, they
are being prepared for that belief with images, particularly
the lesson of the metamorphosis of the butterfly is supposed
to be taught with reincarnation in mind:
"[T]he presentation
of living pictures, or as we might say of symbols, to the mind,
is important for the period between the change of teeth and puberty.
It is essential that the secrets of Nature, the laws of life,
be taught to the boy or girl, not in dry intellectual concepts,
but as far as possible in symbols. Parables of the spiritual
connexions of things should be brought before the soul of the
child in such a manner that behind the parables he divines and
feels, rather than grasps intellectually, the underlying law
in all existence. 'All that is passing is but a parable,' must
be the maxim guiding all our education in this period. It is
of vast importance for the child that he should receive the secrets
of Nature in parables, before they are brought before his soul
in the form of 'natural laws' and the like. An example may serve
to make this clear. Let us imagine that we want to tell a child
of the immortality of the soul, of the coming forth of the soul
from the body. The way to do this is to use a comparison, such
for example as the comparison of the butterfly coming forth from
the chrysalis. As the butterfly soars up from the chrysalis,
so after death the soul of man from the house of the body. No
man will rightly grasp the fact in intellectual concepts, who
has not first received it in such a picture. By such a parable,
we speak not merely to the intellect but to the feeling of the
child, to all his soul. A child who has experienced this, will
approach the subject with an altogether different mood of soul,
when later it is taught him in the form of intellectual concepts.
It is indeed a very serious matter for any man, if he was not
first enabled to approach the problems of existence with his
feeling. Thus it is essential that the educator have at his disposal
parables for all the laws of Nature and secrets of the World."
[Steiner, 1909, EC pp. 32-33]
I don't see where the religion of the person
teaching my child should be any of my business, when you get
right down to it, so long as that teacher does not force that
dogma onto my child.
I agree entirely. But in the case of Waldorf,
the teacher is supposed to educate not by force but subtly "out
of Anthroposophy."
(In the case of WE, however, many of us
choose that education BECAUSE our beliefs jive with those of
the teachers, presuming they do have those beliefs.)
And Waldorf is just right for you.
I guess my astonishment basically comes
from the fact that a parent would not have already investigated
the underpinnings of WE before enrolling. I also am surprised
at how suspicious some people on this list sound: Do you really
think the schools try to hide their true nature until they get
your vulnerable children in their evil clutches,
Yes. But they're not evil, just misguided.
and then try to convert them to some occult
weirdness that includes lighting candles and thanking Nature
for our food before we have snack?? C'mon!!!!
If you're a Catholic or evangelical Christian
learning the truth about Anthroposophy could be quite a shock.
The role of Lucifer, for example.
Well, it's obvious where my sympathies
lie. I think we need more schools that respect children the way
my children are respected and nurtured at their Waldorf school.
Is assuming that they need to look at the
teacher as an absolute authority until puberty respecting them
or stunting their characters? Is teaching them Steiner cult beliefs
instead of science respecting them?
*** One thing I wish someone would answer:
I have never heard the bit about anthroposophy's view on the
races of humanity. One of my daughters is Chinese. What, in a
nutshell, is the supposed view on the evolutionary spirituality
of the different races, and how would I expect this to effect
how my Asian daughter is viewed anthroposophically, versus how
my homemade ``white'' daughter is viewed?
Steiner doesn't talk about Asia much. Some
bits:
" We live as members
of the Germanic peoples, flanked by Slavonic peoples in the east,
and by Anglo-American peoples in the west. Both the Americans
and the Slavs are rising races who have to fulfill their purpose
in the future, races who still stand at the beginning of their
national thought. The basic characteristic of the Slavonic peoples
is expressed in their spiritual talents. ... These Slavonic peoples
had first to confront the races lying to the east, the Chinese
and the Japanese. These are the remnants of earlier races from
Atlantis, as indeed all Mongolians are the residues of later
Atlantean culture. They have astral bodies which intrinsically
tend towards spirituality. The Slavonic peoples have to confront
these.
... In America...materialism
is carried to the extreme...that has led to the spirit itself
being interpreted in a materialistic way. ...it is precisely
in the manner of seeking that the difference lies. If you seek
to see the spiritual with the eyes, it becomes psychic, and this
psychic aspect has developed itself very strongly in America.
The American nation has to confront another ethnic element deriving
from Atlantis and endowed with psychic tendencies. This ethnic
element lives in the negro peoples. The way and manner in which
these two races develop together is significant: psychic has
to confront psychic, spiritual has to confront spiritual." [Steiner, 1905, TL pp. 278-279]
"[The purpose of the
Opium War] is not to help certain people make millions and grow
rich but to prevent certain souls who would have come from the
spiritual world round about now, to strengthen the cultural forces
of Europe, from incarnating yet, and instead to surreptitiously
fill European bodies with Chinese souls...In a great many European
people a disharmony between soul and body has been brought about
in the way I have just described...Seen in this way, that Opium
War meant the switching of a soul element from a part of the
earth to which it belonged--and where it might have been of use,
because it would have fitted--to another part of the earth where
it could become a tool for forces whose designs are by no means
necessarily beneficial for mankind. [Steiner,
1916, KU1 p. 270]
-Dan Dugan
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Robert Flannery
Subject: Re: Learn before you leap/races in SWA
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 05:26:20 -0500
Dan's claim:
If the teachers are doing their job, they
[the children in a waldorf school] are being prepared for that
belief with images, particularly the lesson of the metamorphosis
of the butterfly is supposed to be taught with reincarnation
in mind:
"[T]he presentation
of living pictures, or as we might say of symbols, to the mind,
is important for the period between the change of teeth and puberty.
It is essential that the secrets of Nature, the laws of life,
be taught to the boy or girl, not in dry intellectual concepts,
but as far as possible in symbols. Parables of the spiritual
connexions of things should be brought before the soul of the
child in such a manner that behind the parables he divines and
feels, rather than grasps intellectually, the underlying law
in all existence. 'All that is passing is but a parable,' must
be the maxim guiding all our education in this period. It is
of vast importance for the child that he should receive the secrets
of Nature in parables, before they are brought before his soul
in the form of 'natural laws' and the like. An example may serve
to make this clear. Let us imagine that we want to tell a child
of the immortality of the soul, of the coming forth of the soul
from the body. The way to do this is to use a comparison, such
for example as the comparison of the butterfly coming forth from
the chrysalis. As the butterfly soars up from the chrysalis,
so after death the soul of man from the house of the body. No
man will rightly grasp the fact in intellectual concepts, who
has not first received it in such a picture. By such a parable,
we speak not merely to the intellect but to the feeling of the
child, to all his soul. A child who has experienced this, will
approach the subject with an altogether different mood of soul,
when later it is taught him in the form of intellectual concepts.
It is indeed a very serious matter for any man, if he was not
first enabled to approach the problems of existence with his
feeling. Thus it is essential that the educator have at his disposal
parables for all the laws of Nature and secrets of the World." [Steiner, 1909, EC pp. 32-33]
As I have said before whenever Dan has brought
up this example, it specifically refers to the immortality of
the soul, and says nothing about reincarnation.
Those are two very different ideas.
I've never heard of this lesson being used
in waldorf schools in the way RS and/or Dan describe.
As a teacher, I think it stands best as a
picture of transformation. If it appears as an example in any
classroom anywhere, I suspect that's why it's used.
Robert Flannery
New York
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Robert Flannery
Subject: Re: Learn before you leap/races in SWA
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 05:29:19 -0500
Dan quotes Steiner on race:
" We live as members
of the Germanic peoples, flanked by Slavonic peoples in the east,
and by Anglo-American peoples in the west. Both the Americans
and the Slavs are rising races who have to fulfill their purpose
in the future, races who still stand at the beginning of their
national thought. The basic characteristic of the Slavonic peoples
is expressed in their spiritual talents. ... These Slavonic peoples
had first to confront the races lying to the east, the Chinese
and the Japanese. These are the remnants of earlier races from
Atlantis, as indeed all Mongolians are the residues of later
Atlantean culture. They have astral bodies which intrinsically
tend towards spirituality. The Slavonic peoples have to confront
these.
... In America...materialism
is carried to the extreme...that has led to the spirit itself
being interpreted in a materialistic way. ...it is precisely
in the manner of seeking that the difference lies. If you seek
to see the spiritual with the eyes, it becomes psychic, and this
psychic aspect has developed itself very strongly in America.
The American nation has to confront another ethnic element deriving
from Atlantis and endowed with psychic tendencies. This ethnic
element lives in the negro peoples. The way and manner in which
these two races develop together is significant: psychic has
to confront psychic, spiritual has to confront spiritual." [Steiner, 1905, TL pp. 278-279]
"[The purpose of the Opium War] is not to help certain people
make millions and grow rich but to prevent certain souls who
would have come from the spiritual world round about now, to
strengthen the cultural forces of Europe, from incarnating yet,
and instead to surreptitiously fill European bodies with Chinese
souls...In a great many European people a disharmony between
soul and body has been brought about in the way I have just described...Seen
in this way, that Opium War meant the switching of a soul element
from a part of the earth to which it belonged--and where it might
have been of use, because it would have fitted--to another part
of the earth where it could become a tool for forces whose designs
are by no means necessarily beneficial for mankind. [Steiner, 1916, KU1 p. 270]
I would like to be able to read more than
just the passages selected, which I find interesting. However,
your shorthand used as a cite ("TL" and "KU1")
doesn't provide any assistance. Could you please use a standard
cite, so that further investigation is feasible?
Robert Flannery
New York
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Dan Dugan
Subject: learn before you leap (very long)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 09:30:32 -0800
[posted for Bob Jones]
Dear Lisa:
What do we in Wisconsin mean by "take
over?"
Our hospital's Family Practice Walk-In Clinic
is staffed by 2 MDs who are Waldorf parents. They hand out homeopathic
remedies to anyone who walks in, with no explaination, choice,
or regard to what the patient's complaint may be. They use acupuncture
& homeopathic NSAIDS for strained muscles (which does not
work, BTW) The Nurse Practitioners there hand out herbal remedies
in the same manner. The hospital's computer memory contains over
5000 homeopathic remedies (so much for caring, sensitive, hands
on medicine: just punch it up in the computer). Children with
otitis media (which normally resolves on its own) are taken to
an expensive treatment room & held by an RN on salary who
gives the child homeopathic tablets sub lingual every ten minutes
until the child feels better. This ups the costs for legitimate
medical care in a poor community and uses precious resources
that are short supply for reasons that only benefit the Waldorfian
world view.
Waldorf parents do not vaccinate kids or animals.
Our population of both is at risk. The homeopathic vet is putting
our horse and cattle industry at risk and this also affects the
economy in terms of export, as well as health and epidemic. The
Waldorf MDs tell the parents not to vaccinate. I am old enough
to have _had_ pertussis and to remember it. Why would anyone
who was not an Anthroposophist subject their child to racking
cough and exhaustion and make them more vulnerable to opportunistic
disease? We have had pertussis epidemics here. We see way more
measles then before.Because vaccinations are not 100% effective
& because some our elders had the disease, but no vaccination
over 75 years ago & have lost some of their immunity, this
threatens not only kids, but pregnant moms and older folks and
those whose immune systems are compromised. The Anthroposophical
Medicine worldview is to blame. Personally, I know of 4 patients
who are being "strung along" on homeopathics &
who may have anything from highly contagious dermatitis to bleeding
ulcers. We won't know until the dreaded adverse event takes place.
This is the only hospital available within
45 miles. If it loses it's certification, where will we go when
we _need_ medical attention, fast?
We have a disproportionate number of poorly
educated elderly in our community and a large developmentally
disabled population. They deserve state-of-the-art, scientific
medicine. Epileplitcs need anti-seizure meds, not eurythmy &
color therapy. Anthroposophical Medicine is against this. We
have been told by European medical authorities that in Europe,
when Anthroposophists take over (the European's word) institutions
for the developmentally disabled, the seizure meds for the children
are stopped because "it interfers with their fantasy."
You see, many of our grandparents came from
Europe. Many of us have family ties there, in Germany, Holland
and Norway to this day. We have a large Amish population with
close ties to Switzerland. They all speak the language &
send us the newspapers. We _know_ that there is constant criticism
of Anthroposophy in the Dutch & German press. We are not
paranoid.
We may live in the provinces, but we have
educations, also & the Internet. We understand that while
most Waldorf parents do not know or care about Anthroposophy,
the Anthroposophists consider Waldorf, biodynamic farming, Camphills
and Anthroposophical medicine to be _practical_ anthroposophical
paths. The true genius of Steiner and the present day Anthroposophists
is the myriad ways the goal of conscious re-incarnation and awareness
of and ability to deal with Ahriman can be accomplished, not
to mention the 3-fold economy. Some on this list know all about
this. Some don't. Many could care less. But don't even bother
being your usual arrogant selves and condescend to inform me
that I don't know what I'm talking about. I've been reading this
list for quite a while. Either you don't know or you find it
useful to deceive. It doesn't really matter, because truth will
out. Always.
To continue:
Farming communities have noxious weed ordinances.
These are violated by biodynamic farmers. This is an economic
insult in a community where everyone turns out in spring to pull
up mustard plants that make milk unsaleable. In this area, people
can lose government funding for cropland set-asides if thistle
or other weeds (there is a long list) are found on the land.
When city people who want to live in the country
come here and build $300,000 mansions in a county with a per
capita income of $14,000/year, our property taxes go up and the
families who have generational roots are forced out. These same
people post their land & now, people who have hunted for
food and for family bonding for generations have fewer places
to do so. The deer herds decimate the truck farms & corn
fields because of posted land & no hunting. Lyme disease
increases, due more to the high weeds than to the deer. The habitat
means more rodents. The lack of hunting & the prohibitions
against draining wetlands mean more wildfowl and more mosquitoes.
We dread the advent of other tick-borne disease and of virus
that use fowl as a vector. We have a brand of encephalitis here,
borne by mosquitoes, that is devestating in children, but not
too bad for most adults. The Waldorf community wants zoning so
that _they_ can live in Paradise...this will mean that people
whose only source of retirement income is the sale of their family
land of 200+ acres, will be forced to break it up into smaller
parcels which will take longer to sell. These parcels will not
be economic to farm. There goes our culture. The Waldorfians
do not like the smell of manure. In a farming area, we call it
the smell of money. They are agitating for limits on the size
of herds and flocks of all species; no animal-based economy to
tide us over when milk prices fall.
Our roads are narrow & winding and dangerous,
not suited for today's machinery and truck transport that is
the lifeblood of our communities. But Waldorf parents like the
scenic quality of these death traps & agitate to stop road
improvement. They have money, time and connections. We lose.
In 2 communities in our small, poor county,
the push is on for Charter Waldorf. We get to pay for this. We
cannot afford it. Our public schools are excellent. Our lower
middle & working class kids need the preparation for the
world of commerce that upper class kids, like the children of
the aformentioned MDs, may receive at home or may not need due
to inherited family affluence.
Waldorf graduates who transfer into the public
system are disproportionately Learning Disabled. This is established
by testing & performance. This is known as a 504 & _costs_
the district in money and personnel time spent disproportionately
on Waldorf transfers. The Waldorf transfers are discipline problems
& I mean they carry knives, are belligerent & whine that
they need to do this because they are "picked on" by
being required to meet standards everyone else must meet.
Our ex-DA, a Waldorf parent, did not uphold
the law equally and was lenient in cases involving parents from
his child's school or crimes _he_ judged as non-victim. We paid
his salary and we paid for the improvements made for his comfort
in his publicly owned office. We are now paying for the new,
local DA to clean up the mess and go forward with a backlog of
cases not prosecuted. Our drug related crime has increased. Federal
authorities have and are here because of this. Waldorf parents
have been arrested in these regards and Waldorf grads, as well
as Waldorf high school students are truant, seen loitering on
the Waldorf elementary school playground smoking both cigarettes
& pot, in direct contravention of State and local law. When
apprised of the situation, the Waldorf administration said:"What
do you expect us to do about it?" The Waldorf school refused
to implement a fire drill or any safety programs, including the
need for seat belts and the DARE program. Since the Fire Chief
had a talk with them and told them they were endangering EVERYONE
and he had the power to impose sanctions, a fire policy has been
implemented, but it took a strong action. Strong truancy laws
have just been enacted and they apply to private students.
The number of child abuse cases, teacher/student
sexual affairs, drug and alcohol provision to Waldorf students
by their parents and teachers is epidemic and obvious to us all
and the message to the Waldorf students (which the kids parrot
at every opportunity) is "We do not choose to obey those
laws."
In Baltimore, a small cultural enclave goes
unnoticed. Ethnic food and folkways are quaint, attractive and
add to an ambiance. In a town of 4000, 500 people become a voting
block. In a county of 27,000, with 19,000 registered voters,
a combined population of Waldorfians & old hippies can swing
the vote with decent organizing. The presence of the alienated,
dissaffected Waldorf transfers (who can vote at 18) in the high
school has, for the first time, polarized the high school population
and been the nucleus of a delinquent group that can recruit children
who come from emotionally troubled homes. Before, these kids
had a chance to make normal friends and to excel in school and
sports and to go out into the world and make lives for themselves.
We have nationally known figures in NASA and sports who have
done so from this county. Waldorf students in high school are
not as active in sports as their public school counterparts &
consequently get into more trouble.
A Waldorf parent/certified teacher began a
Charter school based on environmentalism in a neighboring county
even poorer than ours. The students trashed the building and
the 504 costs were way out of line for any of the surrounding
districts. The district terminated the school and other boards
sold old school buildings to the villages for $1/each to keep
this from repeating.
Waldorf parents make use of our community
hockey arena, supported by volunteers & donations & fundraisers.
They do not "give back". In fact, the constant whine
is for everyone to "gift" Waldorf, while they do not
participate in any community charity events AT ALL. Where they
do get involved, they state clearly in their own newsletter and
tell us to our face, that they will run the cultural events in
the future.
Limited Title 6 funds are drained from our
public schools by Waldorf elementary & high school.
They purchase homes and businesses and will
sell them only to other Waldorf parents. We are told these buildings
are not available to us...sometimes when they had been the home
or land of relatives or the business of a family for generations.
If forced to sell outside the Waldorf community,the asking price
is raised for the non-Waldorfians. Businesses in the area are
very aware that while the Waldorf community is growing, the result
is not seen on the local bottom lines. Waldorf parents purchase
elite goods by mail or travel 100 miles to buy politically correct
products or form buying clubs which cut out local merchants.
When a popular business, developed by & supported by Waldorf
parents could not find a buyer in the Waldorf community and was
eventually sold to non-Waldorfians at a price 15% higher than
that asked of Waldorf parents, the Waldorf community boycotted
it because:"It's not _ours_ now." This business will
close soon. The new owners will be forced out of the area because
they are not Waldorf.
We have an Associative Economics Center. We
are afraid that eventually we will have an Anthroposophical Bank,
as we already have Anthroposophical businesses that do not benefit
those who are not biodynamic farmers, New Agers or work within
Anthroposophical philosophies. These businesses will be able
to charter a private bank, as they are way more successful than
any locally oriented businesses, due to import-export opportunities
not available to non-Anthroposophists or those without family
fortunes & connections. What do you imagine will happen to
at least 2 out of 4 small local banks? They will fail.
We have several older, German-speaking Anthroposophists
here now, recruiting among the Masons, the followers of Ek, Mormons
and the New Agers. They tell the recruits that while they respect
their present beliefs, there is a better way to the same end:
Anthroposophy, or white magic. They are also implementing import/export
enterprises between here & Switzerland, here and an Anthroposophical
coffee plantation in Mexico, and here and Santa Marta, Columbia
(this one is a notorious connection to Columbian narco cartels
& has been for 25 years.) That is personal knowledge, not
speculation. We were all young once, too & members of the
counter culture.
Waldorf parents are running for political
office with clearly stated agendas to change our economy, our
culture and the very fabric of our agriculturally-based lives.
Many of us are moving out. Many of us now travel 50 miles for
medical care.
We call this a take over.
What do you call it?
If a proportionate number of Caucasian, conservative,
politically right-wing Christians colonized the inner city of
Baltimore, would you yell cultural imperialism? Theocratic genocide?
How about if the same group moved into your Yuppie enclaves in
numbers large enough to swing the vote, put Christian values
back into the schools, only hired or traded with Christians,
lobbied to put nightclubs and bookstores and bars out of business?
Is that oppression?
There has been a recent thread about "the
good life." We do have spiritual values: we teach them in
our homes and in our churches. Our schools emphasize respect
and honesty and hard work and ethical behavior; reverence for
life and life-long learning. Our children volunteer in the nursing
homes and in the hospital. We have at least one charity fundraiser
a month and our kids help in preparation and presentation. We
have youth groups and school clubs and after school groups that
exist to foster values and culture and religion.Our children
grow up in the woods, fields, rivers, on horseback and with lots
of various animals. They are extremely aware of the seasons and
the weather and the crops and the rythm of the land. We want
material comfort for our children, also. Our parents tell Depression
stories most of you would not believe. We have people here, now,
today, under 70 who tell of being given a single bullet in the
morning. If they shot something, they ate. Simplicity? We _are_
simplicity. Do not teach us how to suck eggs, children. We have
been there & done that onto the 3rd generation.
Waldorf is an airheaded pedagogy suited to
people with more time & money than brains. (sorry if that
is an ad hominem). We do not care if they educate their kids
to be unable to compete in the modern world. Our kids need the
public education we have all worked hard to support & provide.
They need to go to major State Universities, because we cannot
afford private university. They need to work in order to get
there and while they are there and then they need good jobs to
pay off the loans.
Alternative medicine is another personal choice
that should not be foisted on poor, uneducated folks with real
medical needs. Let the alt medders go into private practice,
not monopolize our scant public resources.
We are a stubborn, independant bunch of country
hicks. We rarely have needed to band together beyond our families
and churches. So, in a way, this infiltration has been a blessing
because now we must work together, even if only in small, ad
hoc ways. And we are doing it. Waldorf helps by being deceptive
because eventually people wake up and when they do, they respond
EXACTLY as Michael Kopp, Dan Dugan, Deby Snell and Kathleen Sutphen
have: they get mad and they are not going to put up with any
more than they must.
So, if this is one school, one difficult personality,
one delusions, how come we hear about in in California, New Zealand,
Midwest America? EVERYTHING Kopp, Dugan, Snell, Sutphen &
the various other critics over the years (I have read _all_ the
archives) jibes. It is all the same behavior, the same lesson
plans, the same prayers, the same groupthink. And even the Europeans,
who have known Anthroposophists for 80 years, are tired of it.
Be honest, defenders: those of you who speak German & Dutch
and Norweigian and Swedish...translate those newspaper articles
from Zurich that are in the archives. Translate the Swedish Skeptics
site. Tell us what the European Council on Dangerous Sects said,
because even though they refrained from naming specific groups,
our Belgian friends have verified that Anthroposophy is on that
list.
Lie to yourselves if you must; it is none
of our concern. But do not lie to us any longer, because we ALL
know better.
Bob F. Jones
Viroqua, WI
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Sune Nordwall
Subject: Re: Learn before you leap/races in SWA
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 19:58:00 +0100
Robert in NY wrote:
I would like to be able to read more than
just the passages selected, which I find interesting. However,
your shorthand used as a cite ("TL" and "KU1")
doesn't provide any assistance. Could you please use a standard
cite, so that further investigation is feasible?
I think Dan uses abbreviations that he also
uses at http://waldorfcritics.org/active/articles/Racism_refs.html
At least KU1 can be found there; "Steiner, KU1 Steiner,
Rudolf. The Karma of Untruthfulness: Volume One. (1916) Trans.
Johanna Collis. New York: Anthroposophic Press, 1988". "TL"
from 1905 seems to be missing though.
Sune
Stockholm, Sweden
http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/indexeng.htm
- a site on science, homeopathy, cosmological cell biology and
EU as a mechanical esoteric temple and threefolding of society
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Herman de Tollenaere
Subject: Re: Learn before you leap/races in SWA
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 20:49:49 +0100
*** One thing I wish someone would answer:
I have never heard the bit about anthroposophy's view on the
races of humanity. ...
-- Respectfully submitted by Lisa in Baltimore-
See Toos Jeurissen's [Dutch ex-Waldorf parent's]
booklet, on line at
http://waldorfcritics.org/active/articles/waldorf_salad.html
As taught in The Netherlands Waldorf schools:
In the Dutch national daily Trouw, Wednesday
4 February 1998, the editor for Education, Edwin Kreulen, a former
student at the The Hague Waldorf school, wrote a long article,
"My education towards racism".
I posted this before on this list. I re-post
because of Lisa's request.
Edwin Kreulen:
"According to page
1 of my [Waldorf] exercise book, all races originate from a kind
of primeval man, who lived ten thousand years ago in the central
continent of Atlantis; which, however, had to perish 'because
of abuse of the divine wisdom. On the bottom of the sea, one
can still find the remains of this continent as a long extensive
reef'.
... 'With the first Southern
races, the natural forces of earth and sun have worked to blacken
their skins. With the Northern races, the inner forces of light
became stronger, which made them whites.' 'The races became stuck
at different stages in their development from childhood to old
age.' Then comes a classification, linking the black race to
childhood, the brown race to a fourteen year old, and the whites
to all ages ...
In this very chart, I thought
the linking with parts of the body was as least as remarkable.
According to the exercise book, each race corresponds to a part
of the human body. Senses and brains are linked to whites, metabolism
to blacks. And only the white person has a straight face. Eg,
the yellow race has 'slanted eyes, a hollow face, flat nose,
and coarse black hair.'
Next, the exercise book
discusses all races individually; except for us, the whites,
for we obviously know about that already. ... 'All negroes still
keep a childish expression on their faces for a long time. The
lips are shapeless and thick, the nose somewhat flat and not
yet grown up in a sense.' ... 'Their ["negroes"'] stories,
their views on the world and creation are somewhat childish.
In childish simplicity they worship their gods.' The chapter
on the black race concludes: 'After being dominated for centuries,
the negroes are now developing on their own; however, this goes
with big problems and bloody wars.'
In my class, there was
not a single non-European pupil. Usually, children of more highly
educated and more affluent Europeans go to Waldorf school. So,
I think: how would things be, had we had a black class mate,
making it possible for us to test directly the theory, whether
he really had 'a childish expression' on his face?
At a certain point, my
defense of the school changes into pure anger. How dare they
indoctrinate me with this? And why did the government and its
inspectorate of education, not finish this? An anger, which only
increases, when today Anthroposophists, including a former teacher,
keep defending this by hook and by crook."
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Herman de Tollenaere
---------------------------------------------------------------------
My Internet site on Asian history and "new" religions:
[obsolete url]
See also SIMPOS, information on occult tendencies'
impact on society:
http://www.stelling.nl/simpos/simpoeng.htm
---------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Stephen Tonkin
Subject: Re: Learn before you leap/races in SWA
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 06:46:08 +0000
Herman de Tollenaere wrote:
>As taught in The Netherlands Waldorf
schools:
As Dr de Tollenaere well knows, this teaching
is old news (it happened many years ago) and the offending Dutch
Waldorf schools have long since cleaned up their acts in this
regard.
I wonder why Dr de Tollenaere insists on citing
isolated historical, as opposed to common present day, practice.
Just about any type of education has, in its past, aspects which
would be considered unacceptable by modern standards.
Noctis Gaudia Carpe,
Stephen
--
+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
+ + + + +
+ Stephen Tonkin | ATM Resources; Astro-Tutorials; Astronomy
Books +
+ (N50.9105 W1.829)
+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
+ + + + +
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Dan Dugan
Subject: Re: Learn before you leap/races in SWA
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 02:36:28 -0800
[Steiner, 1905, TL pp. 278-279]
Steiner, Rudolf. The Temple Legend: Freemasonry and Related Occult
Movements: Twenty Lectures given in Berlin between 23rd May 1904
and the 2nd January 1906. (1904-1906) Trans. John M. Wood, Edited
E.M. Lloyd. London: Rudolf Steiner Press, 1985.
[Steiner, 1916, KU1 p. 270]
Steiner, Rudolf. The Karma of Untruthfulness: Volume One. (1916)
Trans. Johanna Collis. New York: Anthroposophic Press, 1988
I would like to be able to read more than
just the passages selected, which I find interesting. However,
your shorthand used as a cite ("TL" and "KU1")
doesn't provide any assistance. Could you please use a standard
cite, so that further investigation is feasible?
Robert Flannery
New York
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Stephen Tonkin
Subject: Re: learn before you leap (very long)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 13:50:40 +0000
Dan Dugan wrote:
[posted for Bob Jones]
What do we in Wisconsin mean by "take over?"
[...]
If the contents of that post were an accurate
and balanced description of the situation, they don't make very
nice reading. Having one's homeland colonised or taken over by
people with different values must be a thoroughly unpleasant
experience. Colonisation or take-over is hardly a new phenomenon
though, neither is it one which is by any stretch of the imagination
limited to anthroposophists. (I'm not trying to excuse it, if
it is an intentional thing -- I am, however, pointing to something
which history suggests in inevitable sooner or later).
I'm woefully ignorant of American history
and geography (I had to look Wisconsin up in the atlas), but
perhaps someone could tell me how the levels of violence and
intimidation in this "take-over" compare to the last
time this land was taken over by people with different values
to the incumbents?
I apologise if my attempts to put this into
an historical perspective display my ignorance -- please educate
me; I also apologise if they appear to be trivialising what is
obviously a very real problem for some people -- that is not
my intention.
Noctis Gaudia Carpe,
Stephen
--
+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
+ + + + +
+ Stephen Tonkin | ATM Resources; Astro-Tutorials; Astronomy
Books +
+ (N50.9105 W1.829)
+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
+ + + + +
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Herman de Tollenaere
Subject: Re: Learn before you leap/races in SWA
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 15:58:14 +0100
*** One thing I wish someone would answer:
I have never heard the bit about anthroposophy's view on the
races of humanity. ...
-- Respectfully submitted by Lisa in Baltimore-
I reacted:
See Toos Jeurissen's [Dutch ex-Waldorf
parent's] booklet,
on recent events
on line at
http://www.dandugan.com/waldorf/articles/waldorf_salad.html
[+ long article from Dutch national daily
Trouw, by a former student at the The Hague Waldorf school]
Stephen Tonkin reacted:
As Dr de Tollenaere well knows, this teaching
is old news (it happened many years ago) and the offending Dutch
Waldorf schools have long since
Long since? The then Vice-President of the
Dutch Anthroposophical Society defended "racial ethnography"
education on 19 February 1996 on national radio, referring to
the "childish" qualities of black players in Ajax soccer
team as proof for the teachings. The conservative wing in Anthroposophy
threatened at least one person in Waldorf education criticizing
this, whom they considered treasonable, with job loss.
cleaned up their acts in this regard.
best wishes,
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Herman de Tollenaere
---------------------------------------------------------------------
My Internet site on Asian history and "new" religions:
[obsolete url]
See also SIMPOS, information on occult tendencies'
impact on society:
http://www.stelling.nl/simpos/simpoeng.htm
---------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Bob Jones
Subject: learn before you leap (very long)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 08:27:18 -0800 (PST)
Stephen wrote:
If the contents of that post were an accurate
and balanced description of the situation, they don't make very
nice reading. Having one's homeland colonised or taken over by
people with different values must be a thoroughly unpleasant
experience. Colonisation or take-over is hardly a new phenomenon
though, neither is it one which is by any stretch of the imagination
limited to anthroposophists. (I'm not trying to excuse it, if
it is an intentional thing -- I am, however, pointing to something
which history suggests in inevitable sooner or later).
Hello, Stephen:
The contents are accurate. Balanced? They
are a concise compilation of experience, observation, & reaction.
In my years (almost 60), I have only heard
of this two other times in the USA, both to do with cults. (sorry,
but that's what they are). One was the Bagwan Rajneesh Purnim
(sp?) in either Washington or Oregon State in the 1970's-80's.
There were plans to set up a sister commune here in a different
village, but then the scandal broke and the local adherents slunk
into the woodwork. If you remember, there was a notorious, purposeful
salmonella outbreak aimed at swinging a local election. The other
is the Transcendental Meditation folks in Fairfield,Iowa; they
have a gem wholesale business and probably others that are extremely
successful, in the millions$/year/gross. They regularly run national
political candidates. This group was also the focus of an establishment
clause suit that they lost. Sorry I don't have all the exact
details, but cult history isn't one of my hobbies. Dan Dugan
may know.
Anthroposophists have the "Jearna Experiment",
as it was known 25 years ago & which, of course, we know
is very successful. Maybe Sune can tell us, from his viewpoint,
how the non-Anthroposophists reacted at first and how they react
now. I believe Anthroposophists are 15% or more of Jearna (Spelling
varies when the diacritical marks are lacking on a keyboard;
apologies). We will have to make allowances, the 2 experiences
aren't analogous. We are conservative Christians, mostly Republican
(right wing), here and this is a country of over 260 B people
of diverse national/ethnic origin. The Waldorfians are all Causasian,
mostly under 45, mostly professional class or inherited wealth,
educated, New Age.
Unpleasant? Well, actually, there has been
one upside, besides the recognition that _we_ need solidarity:
our property values are increasing. This alone has caused many
people in the town to be silent; if they sell at the right time,
before the "bubble bursts", as it were,they can profit.
Physicians occupy social positions of great status here &
for a time, we feared we would not have any doctors when the
elder ones retired. So, the influx of _any_ medical professionals
is welcome, on the one hand. The alternative practices were looked
on with interest & curiousity at first. Now, our Public Health
poeple are just waiting for the Adverse Reactions (A-Rs). Ex:
Waldorfians set up a colonic practice in an area with no seperate
toilet facilities and, from the look & odor, no disinfectants,
either. They were evicted from the building & then the quack
MD (different from the ones in the hospital) sued the landlord
over it. He lost)
Historical inevitability of colonisation is
not a modern American experience. In Europe, wars are fought
over this sort of thing.(as we speak) I want to emphasize: we
aren't xenophobes. We welcome new blood & at first, the alternative
folks were welcomed. It is _they_ who are exclusive. There is
a phenomenon in American Universities: in fraternities &
sororities (Greek letter-name social clubs with separate living
quarters and a reputation for snobbishness), called "rush".
This is when freshman are "looked over" by the group
as possible recruits for membership. I was what was called a
"GDI" or God Damned Independant in college, but the
rush experienece as related by friends & relatives consisted
of a series of parties where one brother was assigned to each
prospect. The brother's job was to vet the guy: parental income,
major, sports ability, grade point, looks, success with women
(I suppose it is similar for the women). Some members are recruited
for one or more of the above reasons, some are "legacies",
meaning parents or other relatives/family friends belonged. This
is how the Waldorfians (I prefer this, as few are really committed
Anthroposophists; only the teachers)treated us, at first. They
held information sessions that were very genteel. Everyone was
very friendly. People with the right age kids (20 years ago when
the school was just a kindy)were "chatted up" by very
enthusiastic parents already involved. Some of our kids attended
kindy. Some of our kids told us:"It smells bad & I want
a doll with a face, crayons that are round, and real Legos."
Originally, Waldorf parents with businesses hired locals for
the minimum wage positions. Now, the have a pool of alternatives
& Waldorf grads from which to hire.
Originally, the politically savvy ones were
hired almost en masse by the non-profits for their degrees and
grantsmanship( the ability to write a request for government
funds in the way most guaranteed to be approved). Those took
control of several non-profits, but have since retired or otherwise
moved on. It has only been within the past 5 years that a new
sort of wealthy, under 45, well-educated, very arrogant type
of Yuppie has shown up, mostly, (again, apologies) from California.
Within the past 18 months, the Waldorfians have reached a point
of social independance: they do not need the community, except
to ask for donations or to enter a few cultural groups with the
stated intent, up front, of running them, "Because _we_
are _about_ culture."(sic) Since they are better suited
to giving orders than doing work, this hasn't been successful.
They have succeeded in alienating both the local residents with
generational ties to the land _and_ the poorer "old hippies."
Among the later, phrases like "elitest" and "takeover"
began surfacing about 2 years ago. Trust me, these are not phrases
usually found in the vocabularies of these folks.
It was as intentional as any alternative/Anthroposophical
happening ever is: a few people are the organizers and the rest
are asleep, but follow along. At least, that's my take; I heard
about Jearna decades ago & I was under the impression it
was purposeful. (Sune?) Otherwise, why the adjective:"experiemnt"?
We know that Dornach is not the "Headquarters" of much
that is real or activist. People who have had contact with the
European Anthroposophical Society are as unimpressed as, we gather,
most of the committed Anthros in any of the paths are. They are
an *ethereal* bunch.<g>
I'm woefully ignorant of American history
and geography (I had to look Wisconsin up in the atlas), but
perhaps someone could tell me how the levels of violence and
intimidation in this "take-over" compare to the last
time this land was taken over by people with different values
to the incumbents?
There is no "violence" and no "intimidation".
Although, I have heard tales of confrontations between teen-aged
males in the local & Waldorf High Schools, but I think it
is at the verbal level, for now. There is shunning of those who
do not belong to the group and economic marginalization (boycott)
of any businesses that compete with Waldorfian, newly-begun enterprises.
Newly arrived people have said directly to me:" Well, (fill
in the name) can stop (fill in the enterprise)now; I'm here."
Another gem:"Farms are going out of business at the rate
of 3 a day. _I_ am what is here,_now_." As to "take
over" the last time: never happened. This was heavily forested
hills & miasmic swamps about 150 years ago. The native Americans
never lived here in a settled manner. They camped near the rivers
in summer, but went south & west during the winters (which
get down to 30 below 0 F, not counting windchill factors with
lots of snow; pre-global warming, of course.) During the Blackhawk
Wars, Blackhawk was chased into the area and the local geography
proved too much for the Cavalry. The local Native American Tribes
established themselves West & North of here & that is
where the government reservations were established. Today, the
Ho-Chunk Nation (aka: Winnebago) run gambling operations and
sue successfully in court for land return and monetary reparations.
As a group, they are affluent & since they can provide jobs
& educations for their children, the old image of poor Aboriginals
is changing.Also, if you study the Native Americans pre colonisation/expansion,
they were not nobel savages. With the exception of the Eastern
Confederation of Iriquois and a couple of other tribes, who had
a government & writing, the Native Americans _were_ savage:
rape, looting, pillage, slavery. Closer to the Mongols than to
peaceful Caribs, for example,
During our Civil War, this was a stop on the
Underground Railway and we had successful black tobacco farmers
here until the 1920's, when they migrated to the cities for factory
jobs. Around 1850, the 1st wave of Norweigian immigrants came.
They were impressed with the blacks' farming abilities and families
intermarried. Later, English, German, Czech and Italians followed.
This is hard country to farm and the weather is extreme. The
major ag business is dairy farming & in the States we have
an arcane system of milk support prices based on how close you
are to Eau Claire, WI. We are about 150 miles from Eau Claire,
so our milk prices are among the lowest in the nation. Tobacco
is no longer politically correct & that is about gone as
a cash crop. Corn & hay are raised to feed the animals belonging
to the farmer, not sold for cash. Commodity prices are depressed
world-wide & that includes meat animals. Government emergency
loan programs are in effect, but subsidies are going or are gone.
We do not protect our ag industry as some nations do, so we are
vulnerable to even cheaper imports.
For all intents and purposes, those of us
who have had family here since 1845 or so _are_ the original
inhabitants. We have what are called "century farms",
those owned by one family in continuous operation for 100 years
or more. The ancestors who first cleared this land (which is
also rocky, BTW), were pioneers.
I apologise if my attempts to put this
into an historical perspective display my ignorance -- please
educate me; I also apologise if they appear to be trivialising
what is obviously a very real problem for some people -- that
is not my intention.
Actually, of the "defenders", you
have struck me as quite balanced and as a man of integrity.
My intention in writing to answer Lisa's comments
were to disabuse anyone of the possibility this was hysteria,
xenophobia, exaggeration or some variant of the cultural war
between social "liberals" and "conservatives"
that rages in the US at this time. (When I was young, "liberal"
was a swear word,) It is a real problem that extends far beyond
some wealthy young adults who have told us they are here to "Live
alternative and rebel against our parents."(sic) Since those
same parents are the source of these folk's financial independance,
this comment & others of its type are slaps in the face to
all of us, local and transplant alike. [I should add that one
is a newcomer for life. When one's child is graduated from the
local schools, one moves up a notch. If that child marries into
a local family, the grandkids are locals & the transplant's
parents are "Not too bad for a newcomer ;~) ]
I'd like to open the dialog. This past week,
the district school Superintendent, the city police,the county
law enforcement officers, the Waldorf High School faculty &
administration met to discuss the truancy and delinquency problems.
The inadequacies of the teacher's training and those of the curriculum
were also on the agenda. This is going on in a professional,
adult fashion, AFAIK. It has not been made public yet. One of
the solutions from our side is to move the HS into the community
college space that also serves the at-risk kids who will only
receive a GED (general educational diploma...not as good as graduating
from an accredited school). There are proposals to require the
Waldorf High School teachers get teaching certificates. This
isn't difficult, as we have a trained-teacher shortage here and
anyone with a 4-year college degree can qualify for an emergency
certificate by taking a few methods courses & an exam. The
HS teachers are mostly college grads, with a few Masters &
PhD degrees thrown in. Personally, many are rather flaky and
a few neurons short of a ganglia (no offense; just the honest
observation of someone who knows a lot of them personally). Nice,
but I am glad they were not my kids' teachers. I suspect it is
the curriculum that will draw the most fire, especially the Goethean
Science. History is also quite post modern in the Waldorf HS
and probably doesn't even come up to the general post modernist
standards.
Of concern to all of us is that the money
coming into the county and the operations of the largest anthro-principled
business ($26M/year gross receipts & another production facility
coming on line next year) are "seemingly" (I am being
politic here) tied into illegal interests. There are Rainbow
Family of Light/Deadhead/eco terrorist connections suspected/alleged/under
investigation.(and highly probably, IMNSHO) This is all extremely
serious. Personally, I am a former organizer and have "movement"
credentials from almost 30 years ago. I grew up & these people
may also, but this is a different sort of alternative type than
the New Left radicals of the 1960's/70's. And they bear no resembalance
to the Old Left Socialists of my time. The in-your-face behavior
is startling, to say the least. The Federal Drug Enforcement
guys are around & active. Our local sherrif is under personal
and career pressure. Groups with similar anarchist/revolutionary
agendas are growing in the area. They are _not_ involved in WE,
and frankly moan that the Waldofians "creep (them) out".
But, they present an attractive alternative to disaffected Waldorf
grads who cannot, will not, or have no need to go on to university
or get a job. Tarjei would understand: these kids are revolutionaries-in-training
and without a cause (or an intellectual clue, in most cases).
They gravitate to street drug selling, "shacking up"
and producing babies that grow up into a sort of wealthy pseudo-red
necks. (red neck: illiterate farmer/laborer; red neck is from
working outdoors year round; lower than working class) We have
methamphetamine labs out in this area, so it isn't just harmless
weed. Within the past 8 years or so, Jamacian Posses, Crips &
Bloods (coastal big city crime gangs, usually minority) have
come into a wide area between the Twin Cities in Minnesota and
Chicago (North & South) and Madison (a university town),
on the East and Fairfield, Iowa on the West. It takes no imagination
to foresee the problems inherent in all of this.
We need a way to dialogue constructively with
the Waldorfians & we haven't found it. The leaderless type
of anarchy and the reliance on peer pressure as an organizing
tool makes it impossible. The American Revolution was a long
time ago, but I can tell you that Swiss, German, and South American
economic interests gaining a foothold are looked upon with extreme
unease here & now. There are approximately 25 different Christian
denominations here and the advent of occult esotericism is most
defintely not welcomed. The political organizing of the alternatives
amounts to smear campaigns, allegations(Big Lies),whispers of
threats from the incumbents to the alternative lifestyle, and,
most shocking, Waldorf parents standing up in various group meetings
& _telling_ people who to vote for. In America, election
etiquete (some enforced by law), says one may stand and offer
one's opinion for a limited time re: a candidate or an issue,
and then relinquish the floor to invited comments from the opposing
side. Opposition comments are shouted down by these folks and
not encouraged, even informally.
The local residents did nothing as long as
our kids & our culture & our land and economy weren't
impacted. But that is changing & it isn't proactive on our
part, but reactive. Not the strongest position to be in, either.
I do hope to hear from Sune, Tarjei and others
on this. We must all live together and I see no reason why we
cannot unless the Waldorfians are absolutely committed to total
control in the area. BTW, there are at least 8 WS within a 250
mile radius, a regional Waldorf association and the movement
is growing. You can't go by the official numbers on the Anthro
sites, because many schools aren't included until they have passed
variou benchmarks in enrollment & number of grades offered.
The alternative to peaceful co-existence is
to make life very uncomfortable for the Waldorfians. We can do
that & it _is_ being discussed. We cannot all move out &
we won't. Nor will we turn over our infrastructure and roll over
like good dogs.
Bob
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Stephen Tonkin
Subject: Re: Learn before you leap/races in SWA
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 17:22:44 +0000
Herman de Tollenaere wrote:
Stephen Tonkin reacted:
Reacted? Oh, I do love the emotional sociologicobabble,
Herman! I did manage to prevent myself changing the "wrote"
above to something from section 652 of the 1978 edition of Roget
in retaliation..
As Dr de Tollenaere well knows, this teaching
is old news (it happened many years ago) and the offending Dutch
Waldorf schools have long since
Long since? The then Vice-President of
the Dutch Anthroposophical Society defended "racial ethnography"
education on 19 February 1996 on national radio, referring to
the "childish" qualities of black players in Ajax soccer
team as proof for the teachings. The conservative wing in Anthroposophy
threatened at least one person in Waldorf education criticizing
this, whom they considered treasonable, with job loss.
Makes my point, I think -- the "person
in Waldorf education" (you were talking about what is/was
taught in Waldorf schools, weren't you?) was *criticising* this.
Let me put a straight question to you, Herman.
Do you have evidence of racial ethnography being taught in Waldorf
schools in Holland in 1999 (or even 1998 -- or 1997 -- or 1996
...)? A simple "yes" or "no" with a year
will suffice (though I expect we'll get more diversionary sociologicobabble
-- it'd be nice to be proved wrong, though).
No-one (AFAIK) is disputing that it was taught
in the past. The question is whether or not it is being taught
*now*; if Waldorf schools are capable of learning from their
errors, correcting them, and going forwards.
I guess a problem is those with the closed
"Waldorf education hasn't changed in 80 years" mindset
who will not allow inconvenient things like facts and evidence
to interfere with their prejudices.
Noctis Gaudia Carpe,
Stephen
--
+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
+ + + + +
+ Stephen Tonkin | ATM Resources; Astro-Tutorials; Astronomy
Books +
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+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
+ + + + +
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Stephen Tonkin
Subject: Re: learn before you leap (very long)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 17:35:13 +0000
Bob,
Just so's you know I'm not ignoring your reply,
I ought to let you know that it'll be a few days before I answer
-- I'm on stage in about 2 hours (an evening of Noel Coward)
and have theatrical and family commitments for the following
days -- I'll respond in more detail then.
Just one thing:
Actually, of the "defenders",
you have struck me as quite balanced and as a man of integrity.
Thank you (but only "quite"? <g>)
-- but some might disagree with you...
Noctis Gaudia Carpe,
Stephen
--
+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
+ + + + +
+ Stephen Tonkin | ATM Resources; Astro-Tutorials; Astronomy
Books +
+ (N50.9105 W1.829)
+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
+ + + + +
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Tarjei Straume
Subject: Re: learn before you leap (very long)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 19:01:15 +0100
Bob Jones wrote:
I do hope to hear from Sune, Tarjei and
others on this.
I have been consistently reluctant to offer
specific opinions about Waldorf education and anthroposophical
medicine because I am not a teacher or a medical doctor. What
regional conflics between "Waldorfians" and WE critics
on distant continents are concerned, it is very difficult to
comment without the former's side of the story being presented.
What I am concerned with is the public blacklisting, maligning,
and discrediting of anthroposophy and its founder. As mentioned
in a recent post, my prime interest in a dialogue about WE is
that I am a Waldorf parent interested in protecting the rights
of my 9 year old son, and the rights of other children, to attend
such a school. To this, Steve Premo offered the following comment:
"Tarjei, nobody's
trying to take that away from you."
This assurance from Steve is contradicted
by Bob's threat:
The alternative to peaceful co-existence
is to make life very uncomfortable for the Waldorfians. We can
do that & it _is_ being discussed.
The ultimate consequence of this policy is
to make life very uncomfortable for myself, my kid, and his teachers.
I appreciate the warning.
Cheers,
Tarjei
http://www.uncletaz.com/
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Bob Jones
Subject: Re: learn before you leap (very long)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 10:47:16 -0800 (PST)
--- Tarjei Straume wrote:
I have been consistently reluctant to offer specific opinions
about Waldorf education and anthroposophical medicine because
I am not a teacher or a medical doctor. What regional conflics
between "Waldorfians" and WE critics on distant continents
are concerned, it is very difficult to comment without the former's
side of the story being presented. What I am concerned with is
the public blacklisting, maligning, and discrediting of anthroposophy
and its founder.
Well, I am not into any of that. I'm not even
a general WE critic, I just don't think much of it as a pedigogy
and I don't want it paid for by public monies. I have said, everyone
is free to do as they please, as long we do not have to pay for
it. However, as a Norweigian-American who lived in this country
(& went to school here? I'm not sure of that)and as a politically-savvy,
literate, self-proclaimed anarchist & anarchosophist, I hoped
you'd have some insight into the political-economic motives that
I think may be grounded in RS's "3-folding society".
Of course, the "other side" has a point of view. They
have articulated to us often: "We're here/we're in your
face/get used to it." _We_ locals are the ones transgressed
against.
You have posted your relationships to the
Norweigian young people who demonstrate & are otherwise politically
active in the cause of minority rights/treatment/immigration
in your country. I think you have posted about your site being
visited by someone with a .mil address. Is there any possibility
that if US Federal cops are roaming the American Midwest on a
drug/politics mission,and if their conclusions lead them to involve
our "external security forces" that your publically
stated involvements in same could have led them to visit your
site? We live in a world with one degree of separation; I'm not
at all convinced that you sit outside the bullseye in this matter,
as you seem to think. Getting into any involvement with those
folks never bodes well, even for the innocent. The officials
involved here are not super-imaginative, in my experience. They
tend to go over well-known tracks & concentrate on what they
already know/believe & then try & make it fit the present
scenario. For all we know, they are still hunting Commies.My
own political/social past carries no official record, but I've
seen my file under FOI. I was surprised I even had a file. You've
spoken out in the belief that your government is the lap dog
of ours. Norweigians are the largest ethnic group here; I am
even related to a few.<g> I wouldn't be quite so sure you
are safely at a distance. And I really mean that in a spirit
of solidarity.
As mentioned in a recent post, my prime
interest in a dialogue about WE is that I am a Waldorf parent
interested in protecting the rights of my 9 year old son, and
the rights of other children, to attend such a school. To this,
Steve Premo offered the following comment:
"Tarjei, nobody's
trying to take that away from you."
This assurance from Steve is contradicted
by Bob's threat:
The alternative to peaceful co-existence
is to make life very uncomfortable for the Waldorfians. We can
do that & it _is_ being discussed.
The ultimate consequence of this policy
is to make life very uncomfortable for myself, my kid, and his
teachers. I appreciate the warning.
Whoa! If you are distanced from this by virtue
of residing on another continent, then how does the situation
here impact your child's education? Our educational systems differ
a lot. The local discussion is more about making it difficult
for truant High Schoolers to roam the community looking for distraction,
making their education equivalent to the public one, so that
they can go on to college and eventually find careers, if they
so choose and not become burdens on some aspect of society, or
the victims of same. We also think public health and safety needs
addressing, re: alternative medical practices vis-a-vis fecal
matter in public spaces and common safety precautions, such as
fire drills in buildings located within town limits and in proximity
to young and perhaps careless smokers of various substances.
Perhaps we are looking at zoning enforcements for manufacturing
concerns within city limits that violate Occupational Health
& Safety. And, yes, there may be some checking into passports
& visas, but if they are legitimate and in accordance with
Federal, State and local law, nothing will transpire.
I thought you had political concerns that
coincide with what we are looking at locally. If not, I apologize
and of course, you do not have to participate in the conversation.
Steve Premo, however, is correct: no one is
trying to take Waldorf Education away from anyone. We don't want
it to be publicly financed, but then, neither did Steiner. I
don't think the US has reached the point where the Waldorf precepts/percepts
are so included in the larger culture, that Waldorf may now peacefully
retire, which is how I resd Steiner on the subject.
My personal take on RS is complex and I don't
want to be gratuitous or inflammatory. There has been a lot of
that on this list over 4 years and I cannot see where it suits
anyone's agenda. I have been one of those lurkers whose hearts
& minds many of you seem to believe you are fighting for.
Actually, there was many a time I just thought:"A pox on
both your houses." I have stated I desire a dialog and I
believe that dialog would involve defending Anthroposophy &
it's founder. I am after some insight into the political and
economic goals of Anthroposophy, by whatever chosen path.How
is that a threat? Are you only willing to participate in a reactionary
manner?
Please correct any wrong assumptions.
Regards,
Bob F Jones
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Tarjei Straume
Subject: Re: learn before you leap(very long)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 21:52:58 +0100
Bob Jones wrote:
Well, I am not into any of that. I'm not
even a general WE critic, I just don't think much of it as a
pedigogy and I don't want it paid for by public monies. I have
said, everyone is free to do as they please, as long we do not
have to pay for it. However, as a Norweigian-American who lived
in this country (& went to school here? I'm not sure of that)
and as a politically-savvy, literate, self-proclaimed anarchist
& anarchosophist, I hoped you'd have some insight into the
political-economic motives that I think may be grounded in RS's
"3-folding society".
My understanding of the Threefold Social Order
may be somewhat simplified, but it is based upon the slogans
articulated in the French Revolution: Liberty, Fraternity, Equality.
Many of our social ills are the results of confusion concerning
the respective roles of these principles. Liberty, freedom, belongs
to the cultural, artistic, and religious sphere, which includes
education. Fraternity should rule in the economic sphere, and
equality in the sphere of legal rights and the courts (everybody
being equal to the law).
When equality is applied to economics (instead
of fraternity), we get communism, or state socialism. When liberty
is applied to economics, we get social injustice based upon huge
gaps between rich and poor. Et cetera.
Government bureaucrats and civil servants
should not interfere with education, with theater, literature
and so on. (By the same token, educational institutions should
be financially independent.) I saw someone criticizing Waldorf
for giving teachers too much authority. What they mean is too
much freedom. They believe that the authority of the state should
constrain the freedom of teachers.
The economy of the Threefold Social Order
is more complicated, because Rudolf Steiner suggested a radically
original type of currency that might prevent the accumulation
of wealth. Money should always be in circulation for productive
purposes. For further pursuit of this topic, I recommend a cycle
of lectures to students of economics held in Dornach July-August
1922, published by Rudolf Steiner Press as "World Economy,
The Formation of a Science of World Economics." (GA 340)
Of course, the "other side" has
a point of view. They have articulated to us often: "We're
here/we're in your face/get used to it." _We_ locals are
the ones transgressed against.
Again, it is difficult for me to comment the
allegation that anthroposophists and "Waldorfers" are
harassing local residents in your area and pushing themselves
into their faces.
You have posted your relationships to the
Norweigian young people who demonstrate & are otherwise politically
active in the cause of minority rights/treatment/immigration
in your country. I think you have posted about your site being
visited by someone with a .mil address. Is there any possibility
that if US Federal cops are roaming the American Midwest on a
drug/politics mission,and if their conclusions lead them to involve
our "external security forces" that your publically
stated involvements in same could have led them to visit your
site?
Frankly, my posts about hits on my website
from US Dept of Defense (.MIL) domain (wow, another hit today!)
were prompted by Sune's allegation that they were snooping in
our private email. My personal educated guess is that their interest,
beyond normal curiosity, may be prompted by the recent hacking
of the Pentagon. Some of this hacking was traced to Norway, and
the anarchist underground has close ties with the hacking community;
they actually merge on the internet. The hacking in question
probably did not originate from Norway, but from Iraq or elsewhere,
using Norway and a few other nations as misleading midway stations.
A Pentagon insider was obviously involved. (As far as I'm concerned,
the Pentagon gets what it deserves when they're stupid enough
to link sensitive top secrets to the internet in the first place.
The Norwegian military doesn't do that.)
We live in a world with one degree of separation;
I'm not at all convinced that you sit outside the bullseye in
this matter, as you seem to think.
I'm afraid you're losing me with those metaphors.
What matter? What bullseye?
I wouldn't be quite so sure you are safely
at a distance. And I really mean that in a spirit of solidarity.
In certain respects Norway is a safer corner
than other countries, especially when it comes to challenging
the Church of Scientology. If I lived in America, or even in
Germany or perhaps Britain, I might get midnight anonymous phone
calls or find my tires slashed for the stuff I've posted on my
website. And what the U.S. Government and all their law enforcement
is concerned, they'll have to go through the Norwegian justice
department to get to me, and you have to be mighty important
to deserve that honor. Beyond this, I really don't know what
you're getting at.
Whoa! If you are distanced from this by
virtue of residing on another continent, then how does the situation
here impact your child's education?
The internet is a global public medium. So
are media like American TV networks, major American newspapers,
Time and Newsweek magazines etc. And if your proposed anthropop-bashing,
or Waldorfer-bashing, catches fire, nobody knows when the mob
or some Gestapo task force from our educational department, may
come around to close down my son's school. Hey, our police chiefs
and justice ministers and so on are constantly visiting the U.S.
to learn from the FBI and other law enforcement agencies how
to deal with crime the American way, how to handcuff us, how
to get around laws against wiretapping and get such laws changed
and so on (and they're being successful). And thanks to your
efforts, they may soon learn how to recognize and deal with cults
the American way too.
It is perhaps appropriate to mention something
Rudolf Steiner said would come in the future. I don't remember
the reference to this, but RS emphasized that this was not a
warning, but a prediction: That in the future, children will
be given injections by the state health authorities against spiritual
visions, against clairvoyance and the like, which will be treated
as a disease.
I thought you had political concerns that
coincide with what we are looking at locally. If not, I apologize
and of course, you do not have to participate in the conversation.
My political concerns are posted on my website.
I don't know what they may or may not coincide with.
I have stated I desire a dialog and I believe
that dialog would involve defending Anthroposophy & it's
founder. I am after some insight into the political and economic
goals of Anthroposophy, by whatever chosen path.
Now in the first place, I am not involved
in any organized anthroposophical initiatives. It is my impression
that each bookstore, each Camphill community, and each Waldorf
school is trying to make ends meet indepentently and separately
from any perceived "political and economic goals" what
the movement as a whole is concerned. There is no political-economic
conspiracy behind anthroposophy.
Secondly, I'm receiving 30-40 emails a day,
and I am not interested in lengthy dialoges based upon very long
posts. I prefer the freedom to pick the posts I might like to
comment. On the other hand, I do answer all questions to the
best of my ability, provided that these are requests for brief
answers, not essays and theses. (I've been very patient this
time. Don't count on it in the future.)
How is that a threat?
When you state that you are involved in discussions
about making life very uncomfortable for the Waldorfians, and
that you can do that, it looks like a mafia-styled threat.
Are you only willing to participate in
a reactionary manner?
I participate, or refrain from participating,
exactly as I see fit, and I really don't care if you call it
reactionary.
Cheers,
Tarjei
http://www.uncletaz.com/
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Herman de Tollenaere
Subject: Re: Learn before you leap/races in SWA
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 22:28:53 +0100
Stephen Tonkin reacted [reacted=just an English
translation of the common Dutch word "reageerde"=replied]:
As Dr de Tollenaere well knows, this teaching
[of "racial ethnography" in Dutch schools] is old news
(it happened many years ago) and the offending Dutch Waldorf
schools have long since
I replied:
Long since? The then Vice-President of
the Dutch Anthroposophical Society defended "racial ethnography"
education on 19 February 1996 on national radio, referring to
the "childish" qualities of black players in Ajax soccer
team as proof for the teachings. The conservative wing in Anthroposophy
threatened at least one person in Waldorf education criticizing
this, whom they considered treasonable, with job loss.
Since when is three years "many years
ago", "old", and "long since"? maybe
in Anthroposophical mathematics? or in Thatcherite logic [Margaret
Thatcher recently claimed coup d'etat killer Pinochet brought
democracy to Chile]? or a mix of both? or is "Tonkin's"
mail by Thatcher, falsely using Stephen Tonkin's e-mail address?
<g>
This critical "person in Waldorf education",
endangered by job loss, mentioned by me, told me: this "racial
ethnography" issue is *not* the past. It will come up again,
as long as dogmatism will be entrenched in Waldorf and Anthroposophy.
Yes, "racial ethnography" was most
definitely taught in Dutch Waldorf schools in 1996. Then came
an almighty row in the national media, an investigation by the
Ministry of Education, and much criticism [mostly by outsiders
to Anthroposophy, including Waldorf parents, Waldorf students,
and others; but also by a courageous minority of Anthroposophists].
After that row, with the echos of an earlier, 1985, national
row, still echoing, the name of the subject changed from Dutch
"rassenkunde" ("racial ethnography") to more
neutral sounding volkenkunde ("ethnography").
Dissent, not conformism to [in this case occult]
authorities, *does* help, sometimes.
How about *content* of "ethnography"
today? Unfortunately for the purpose of information to this list,
Waldorf parents raising the alarm in 1996-1997 have withdrawn
their children from Waldorf. They do not want their children
to suffer from their parents being seen as enemies by entrenched
dogmatic Anthroposophists.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Herman de Tollenaere
---------------------------------------------------------------------
My Internet site on Asian history and "new" religions:
[obsolete url]
See also SIMPOS, information on occult tendencies'
impact on society:
http://www.stelling.nl/simpos/simpoeng.htm
---------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Bob Jones
Subject: learn before you leap (very long, sorry)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 15:27:15 -0800 (PST)
--- Tarjei Straume wrote:
(snip)
My understanding of the Threefold Social
Order may be somewhat simplified, but it is based upon the slogans
articulated in the French Revolution: Liberty, Fraternity, Equality.
Many of our social ills are the results of confusion concerning
the respective roles of these principles. Liberty, freedom, belongs
to the cultural, artistic, and religious sphere, which includes
education. Fraternity should rule in the economic sphere, and
equality in the sphere of legal rights and the courts (everybody
being equal to the law).
When equality is applied to economics (instead
of fraternity), we get communism, or state socialism. When liberty
is applied to economics, we get social injustice based upon huge
gaps between rich and poor. Et cetera.
Government bureaucrats and civil servants
should not interfere with education, with theater, literature
and so on. (By the same token, educational institutions should
be financially independent.) I saw someone criticizing Waldorf
for giving teachers too much authority. What they mean is too
much freedom. They believe that the authority of the state should
constrain the freedom of teachers.
The economy of the Threefold Social Order
is more complicated, because Rudolf Steiner suggested a radically
original type of currency that might prevent the accumulation
of wealth. Money should always be in circulation for productive
purposes. For further pursuit of this topic, I recommend a cycle
of lectures to students of economics held in Dornach July-August
1922, published by Rudolf Steiner Press as "World Economy,
The Formation of a Science of World Economics." (GA 340)
Thank you. Much of this is too complex to
respond to immediately.
(snip)
Whoa! If you are distanced from this by
virtue of residing on another continent, then how does the situation
here impact your child's education?
The internet is a global public medium.
So are media like American TV networks, major American newspapers,
Time and Newsweek magazines etc. And if your proposed anthropop-bashing,
or Waldorfer-bashing, catches fire, nobody knows when the mob
or some Gestapo task force from our educational department, may
come around to close down my son's school.
Ha, ha, ha!!! The American press only wants
20 minute segments of crying victims and lovely clear video of
crime taking place!! Or preferably some gruesome disease for
people to gape at. There was just a recent wire article about
a young woman in NV who reported a rape. The police not only
didn't believe her, they were nasty and dismissive and personally
abusive. Months later, the rapist was caught in commission of
another rape & he & his accomplice confessed to the first
one. The woman is suing.There will probably be a program about
that soon. No one cares, outside of our little county, about
Waldorf or Anthroposophy. The average American won't listen to
anything he can't pronounce. I do not see myself or my neighbors
as general bashers. We have a local problem; we want to resolve
it in an equitable manner. If the attitude is that any attempt
at resolution is an infringement and that the only choice is
to do nothing, then we have an irreconcilable problem. In my
experience, that breeds frustration and it is impossible to predict
outcome. That isn't a threat at all; it is a sober expression
of experience in human affairs.
What "mob"? Do you have Gestapo-type
task forces there? We don't. Do you mean the ATF? All they care
about is guns & alcohol & tobacco taxes.
Hey, our police chiefs and justice ministers
and so on are constantly visiting the U.S. to learn from the
FBI and other law enforcement agencies how to deal with crime
the American way, how to handcuff us,
They need lessons in this?
how to get around laws against wiretapping
and get such laws changed and so on (and they're being successful).
And thanks to your efforts, they may soon learn how to recognize
and deal with cults the American way too.
There are attorneys on this list. I believe
that evidence collected in a manner which breaks the law invalidates
the arrest or even the conviction. One slip that breaks one rule
governing a person's civil rights or correct procedure can get
a case or a conviction overturned.
"Cults" exist in America. Leaders
or members of cults (I prefer sects, actually), can be arrested
as individuals if they break the law. I do not make excuses for
excesses of authority, but I see no instance where a group was
persecuted without some egregious act. Waco, perhaps, was an
exception. That was terrible and should not have happened as
it did. But I have read that the followers of Koresh still meet
and still do whatever it was they did in the name of their beliefs.
I cannot think of a group that is outlawed for belief or for
practices that don't violate the law. Doesn't mean it isn't so;
I just do not have that information. I'd be interested if anyone
on the list knows of a "cult" being dealt with "in
the American way." To me that means left alone if you don't
infringe on others or break the law.
It is perhaps appropriate to mention something
Rudolf Steiner said would come in the future. I don't remember
the reference to this, but RS emphasized that this was not a
warning, but a prediction: That in the future, children will
be given injections by the state health authorities against spiritual
visions, against clairvoyance and the like, which will be treated
as a disease.
I do not know what this refers to. Not even
vaccinations can be administered without parental consent. The
child can be prevented from attending public school, or even
private school, if the school has a rule about it, but one of
our problems is the lack of authority to administer vaccinations.
I do not know of any disease with clairvoyance etc as a symptom.
I doubt the existence of clairvoyance, anyway. If this is a prediction,
we will have to wait & see.
When you state that you are involved in
discussions about making life very uncomfortable for the Waldorfians,
and that you can do that, it looks like a mafia-styled threat.
Since we are acting to protect our way of
life: economic, cultural, & legal, and our interest in our
common assets like schools/hospitals/roads/tax revenues, we see
it as justified. We aren't advocating physical harm or force
or violence or economic ruin or even intimidation. But we see
no reason to finance endeavors that are antithetical to our continued
well-being, if not existence, or to turn our institutions over
to whoever decides thay want them. After all, this group of people
does not seem to care if they make life very uncomfortable for
us. We aren't even "a group". Just citizens with whatever
limited acess to authoriy that can only deal with various specific
issues in an ad hoc manner.
It is a tribute to our system that we cannot
harrass other people legally. And it is also a tribute that we
can decide to enforce existing standards, rules and laws dealing
with health, safety,political institutions. Or, we have the capacity
to pass new laws, within the confines of 2 constitutions.
That isn't breaking knees.
Bob
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Tarjei Straume
Subject: Re: learn before you leap (very long, sorry)
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 01:49:30 +0100
Bob Jones wrote:
Ha, ha, ha!!!
A very interesting point.
The American press only wants 20 minute
segments of crying victims and lovely clear video of crime taking
place!! Or preferably some gruesome disease for people to gape
at.
In that case, there would be nothing else
on the news; there would have been no 2 hour special on Scientology,
no 60 Minutes investigative reporting, which is also aired in
Europe.
No one cares, outside of our little county,
about Waldorf or Anthroposophy.
???
What "mob"?
The suggestion "to make life very uncomfortable"
for someone is reminiscient of mob or mafia mentality.
Do you have Gestapo-type task forces there?
We don't.
All government agencies in all countries have
the capacity to act like a Gestapo in certain circumstances.
In America, the expression has been applied to the IRS.
Do you mean the ATF? All they care about
is guns & alcohol & tobacco taxes.
Hey, our police chiefs and justice ministers
and so on are constantly visiting the U.S. to learn from the
FBI and other law enforcement agencies how to deal with crime
the American way, how to handcuff us,<<
They need lessons in this?
If they didn't, they wouldn't cross the Atlantic
repeatedly for all that training, would they?
There are attorneys on this list. I believe
that evidence collected in a manner which breaks the law invalidates
the arrest or even the conviction. One slip that breaks one rule
governing a person's civil rights or correct procedure can get
a case or a conviction overturned.
In Norway, the testimony from one person can
be enough to land you in jail for a decade or two on drug charges.
In America, there is something called "asset forfeiture,"
which means that if you lend your car or your house to someone
who who uses it to transport or sell drugs, your property belongs
to the state. The legal protection of individuals against Big
Brother looks beautiful on paper, but if you have no money, no
reputatio0n, and no friends in high places, they can walk all
over you.
That isn't breaking knees.
I wasn't referring to breaking knees or throwing
bombs or filing lawsuits or anything. I was simply referring
to the phraze "to make life very uncomfortable." It
sounds disturbing.
Tarjei
http://www.uncletaz.com/
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Michael Kopp
Subject: Re: learn before you leap(very long)
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 15:55:43 +1200
Tarjei Straume wrote:
Bob Jones wrote:
I do hope to hear from Sune, Tarjei and
others on this.
I have been consistently reluctant to offer
specific opinions about Waldorf education and anthroposophical
medicine because I am not a teacher or a medical doctor. What
regional conflics between "Waldorfians" and WE critics
on distant continents are concerned, it is very difficult to
comment without the former's side of the story being presented.
What I am concerned with is the public blacklisting, maligning,
and discrediting of anthroposophy and its founder. As mentioned
in a recent post, my prime interest in a dialogue about WE is
that I am a Waldorf parent interested in protecting the rights
of my 9 year old son, and the rights of other children, to attend
such a school. To this, Steve Premo offered the following comment:
"Tarjei, nobody's
trying to take that away from you."
This assurance from Steve is contradicted
by Bob's threat:
The alternative to peaceful co-existence
is to make life very uncomfortable for the Waldorfians. We can
do that & it _is_ being discussed.
The ultimate consequence of this policy
is to make life very uncomfortable for myself, my kid, and his
teachers. I appreciate the warning.
Excuse me?
How does, or could, a situation in Viroqua,
Wisconsin, a quarter of the way around the world from you, affect
you and your child?
Bob Jones is talking about a local legal,
political and cultural situation that can have no effect on the
cult of Steiner, the religion of Anthroposophy or its missionary
arm, Waldorf schools (SWA), worldwide, much less in other isolated
areas.
The Viroquans will, I am sure, use only legal
means to their ends; there'll be no burnings or violence. Exposing
the cult takeover of their town on this list is an extension
of that legal process, guanranteed by the U.S. Constitution.
Just as PLANS and the aggrieved people of
California will use legal means, including the Internet, to resolve
the issue of the legality of SWA in public or publicly-funded
schools.
That said, if you are threatened by the ideas
of those who do not want SWA to impinge on their lives, then
you are more paranoid than Robert Flannery thinks I am. (And
yes, I know your history leads you to easy paranoia, with good
reason. So does mine. But it doesn't include being afraid of
ideas the exposure of my thinking.)
Cheers from Godzone,
Michael Kopp
Wellington, New Zealand
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Tarjei Straume
Subject: Re: learn before you leap(very long)
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 16:15:07 +0200
Bob Jones wrote:
The alternative to peaceful co-existence
is to make life very uncomfortable for the Waldorfians. We can
do that & it _is_ being discussed.
I wrote:
The ultimate consequence of this policy
is to make life very uncomfortable for myself, my kid, and his
teachers. I appreciate the warning.
Michael Kopp wrote:
Excuse me?
How does, or could, a situation in Viroqua, Wisconsin, a quarter
of the way around the world from you, affect you and your child?
You have a point, Michael, but what I commented
on was *the ultimate consequence of this policy* seen in a broader
perspective.
Bob Jones is talking about a local legal, political and cultural
situation that can have no effect on the cult of Steiner, the
religion of Anthroposophy or its missionary arm, Waldorf schools
(SWA), worldwide, much less in other isolated areas.
I addressed the mentality perceived from the
phrase in question and illumined it from a less isolated vantage
point.
The Viroquans will, I am sure, use only legal means to their
ends; there'll be no burnings or violence. Exposing the cult
takeover of their town on this list is an extension of that legal
process, guanranteed by the U.S. Constitution.
Yet, as L. Ron Hubbard discovered, litigation
and lawsuits can be used to intimidate and harrass, and to make
life very uncomfortable for your targets.
Cheers,
Tarjei
http://www.uncletaz.com/
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Michael Kopp
Subject: Re: learn before you leap(very long)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 10:20:15 +1200
Tarjei Straume writes about the dangers of
the Viroqua anti-Waldorf conspiracy:
Bob Jones wrote:
The alternative to peaceful co-existence
is to make life very uncomfortable for the Waldorfians. We can
do that & it _is_ being discussed.
Tarjei Straume wrote:
The ultimate consequence of this policy
is to make life very uncomfortable for myself, my kid, and his
teachers. I appreciate the warning.
Michael Kopp wrote:
Excuse me?
How does, or could, a situation in Viroqua, Wisconsin, a quarter
of the way around the world from you, affect you and your child?
And STRAUME replies:
You have a point, Michael, but what I commented
on was *the ultimate consequence of this policy* seen in a broader
perspective.
Now KOPP says:
Right. I see. I didn't know I was engaged
in a vast, worldwide conspiracy of hundreds, if not thousands,
of anti-Waldorf people dedicated to destroy anything and anyone
that has anything to do with the Steiner cult, Anthroposophical
religion, or their missionary arm, Waldorf schools (SWA). Shucks,
m'am, I'm not even a dues-paying, card-carrying member of PLANS.
Seems to me that the ultimate consequence
of a policy of using legal and social means of protecting one's
way of life can hardly be said to be a force bent on destroying
someone else's way of life.
The Viroqans are the ones who've been invaded,
not the Anthropops.
All I've ever heard from Waldorf critics or
anti-Anthropops is that they wish not to have Steiner's influence,
or his cultists, in their lives. They are quite happy for SWA
to exist -- as long as they do not infiltrate public or publicly-funded
schools in the U.S. or band together to make economic, social
and cultural assaults on existing ways of life.
Every -- repeat every -- critical voice I've
heard here (or anywhere else) has defended the right of SWA to
exist believe anything they want and have their own schools and
communities -- as long as they maintain legal separation of church
and state and do nothing else illegal, such as defraud unsuspectinge
parents.
I still live next door to a Steiner school
and have many Anthropop neighbours. I do not fear them -- and
they do not fear me. That's because we live in a suburb of 50,000
people, in a metropolitan area of about 1.5 million. There's
plenty of room for all of us, and plenty of opportunity for SWA
businesses and other activities, without encroaching on the rights
of any neighbours.
Viroqua is different: a population of only
5,000 or so, in a depressed economic area, with a culture long
established. A culture that makes room for newcomers, if reluctantly,
but which does not wish to be taken over by outside influences.
KOPP said:
Bob Jones is talking about a local legal,
political and cultural situation that can have no effect on the
cult of Steiner, the religion of Anthroposophy or its missionary
arm, Waldorf schools (SWA), worldwide, much less in other isolated
areas.
STRAUME replied:
I addressed the mentality perceived from
the phrase in question and illumined it from a less isolated
vantage point.
KOPP says:
And you replied with an innuendo about these
people that makes them seem like fascists -- something that I
cannot imagine. Yes, they're conservative. No, they don't want
SWA people running their educational, legal, social and cultural
affairs. Yes, they will use every _legal_ tactic to oppose SWA
doing so.
That's democracy in action, not fascism or
hoodlumism.
Kopp said:
The Viroquans will, I am sure, use only
legal means to their ends; there'll be no burnings or violence.
Exposing the cult takeover of their town on this list is an extension
of that legal process, guanranteed by the U.S. Constitution.
STRAUME replied:
Yet, as L. Ron Hubbard discovered, litigation
and lawsuits can be used to intimidate and harrass, and to make
life very uncomfortable for your targets.
KOPP says:
There is delicious irony in this: the "anarchosophist"
talks newspeak. If anyone has the likelihood of becoming a corporate
cult like Scientology, it is the organised groups of SWA people
like the ones in Viroqua, and, recently, in New Zealand. Here
a Steiner school group tried to get planning permission exemption
to expand a Steiner school in a residential neighbourhood of
a small, arts-and- eccentrics and vacation town. The townies
resisted, in court, and won.
Golly, next thing you know, the native Viroqans
and native Paekakarikians will be torching the Steiner schools
and riding the cultists out of town, tarred and feathered, on
a rail.
Come on, Tarjei, get real, and stop taking
stupid potshots at any and every opposition to SWA.
There are enough _big_ repressive forces in
society without adding SWA critics and local townspeople to the
list.
BTW, I believe the excesses of Scientology
have occurred mostly after L. Ron's death, perpetrated by a cynical,
manipulative, criminal corporate element at the centre of the
"church".
Cheers from Godzone,
Michael Kopp
Wellington, New Zealand
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Tarjei Straume
Subject: Re: learn before you leap(very long)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 03:56:23 +0200
Michael Kopp wrote:
Right. I see. I didn't know I was engaged
in a vast, worldwide conspiracy of hundreds, if not thousands,
of anti-Waldorf people dedicated to destroy anything and anyone
that has anything to do with the Steiner cult, Anthroposophical
religion, or their missionary arm, Waldorf schools (SWA). Shucks,
m'am, I'm not even a dues-paying, card-carrying member of PLANS.
Your position seems to be more in the direction
of organized humanists and skeptics who see it as their mission
to warn humanity against the harm of religion and spirituality
in general. And maybe you're focusing on anthroposophy because
of some personal grudge against your local Waldorf school, which
makes you fit the profile of a hardcore WE critic to a tee. And
it is a fair speculation that many hardcore WE critics would
prefer to live in a world where the anthroposophical movement
had been brought to a halt and even destroyed.
Seems to me that the ultimate consequence of a policy of using
legal and social means of protecting one's way of life can hardly
be said to be a force bent on destroying someone else's way of
life.
People kill each other for self-protection
and property rights. Destructive wars have erupted because people
felt their way of life was threatened. The abolition of slavery
and the black civil rights movement a century later was violently
opposed by people who felt their way of life threatened by it.
The Viroqans are the ones who've been invaded, not the Anthropops.
A good point. It is my impression, however,
that there are a lot of undisciplined, freaky oddballs involved
here who practice som kind of watered-down anthroposophy. The
mention of out-of-control sexual activities between students
and teachers in the schools (orgies?) and the low academic achievement
scores makes it look like a hillbilly commune of sorts. But when
I read that "Waldorf is an airheaded pedagogy suited to
people with more time & money than brains," the attack
is no longer confined to those local eccentrics, but extends
to the school my son attends in Stavanger, Norway. That is why
I take it from there - to protect my way of life, my family,
and my property against them anti-Waldorfian, trigger-happy hillbillies.
All I've ever heard from Waldorf critics or anti-Anthropops is
that they wish not to have Steiner's influence, or his cultists,
in their lives. They are quite happy for SWA to exist -- as long
as they do not infiltrate public or publicly-funded schools in
the U.S. or band together to make economic, social and cultural
assaults on existing ways of life.
If that were the case, the inflammatory, derogatory,
ridiculing, slanderous, and aggressive assaults against Anthroposophy
and Rudolf Steiner would not have taken place on this list, nor
on the PLANS website.
Every -- repeat every -- critical voice I've heard here (or anywhere
else) has defended the right of SWA to exist believe anything
they want and have their own schools and communities -- as long
as they maintain legal separation of church and state and do
nothing else illegal, such as defraud unsuspectinge parents.
I have seen a lot more than that, also from
you. The conclusion drawn from so many posts here is that parents
who send their kids to Waldorf schools are not only having their
legs pulled by conniving, sinister, and dishonest Nazi-cultists,
but they are endangering their children and sacrificing their
future.
I still live next door to a Steiner school and have many Anthropop
neighbours. I do not fear them -- and they do not fear me. That's
because we live in a suburb of 50,000 people, in a metropolitan
area of about 1.5 million. There's plenty of room for all of
us, and plenty of opportunity for SWA businesses and other activities,
without encroaching on the rights of any neighbours.
Hmmm.. Is that where they're growing that
biodynamic marijuana? Think you could send me some? (If not,
I'll ask the hillbillies.)
Viroqua is different: a population of only 5,000 or so, in a
depressed economic area, with a culture long established. A culture
that makes room for newcomers, if reluctantly, but which does
not wish to be taken over by outside influences.
It looks to me like a skirmish between traditional
and New Age hillbillies.
And you replied with an innuendo about
these people that makes them seem like fascists -- something
that I cannot imagine. Yes, they're conservative. No, they don't
want SWA people running their educational, legal, social and
cultural affairs. Yes, they will use every _legal_ tactic to
oppose SWA doing so.
I think anthroposophists should initiate their
local endeavors by building institutions of their own from scratch
- not take over those of others. And I think most anthroposophists
share this view. So I am not defending the behavior of anthroposophical
hillbillies who apparently have an amateurish and undisciplined
approach to everything they do. I am reacting to the judgement
made against Waldorf and anthroposophy in general as a result
of this situation.
That's democracy in action, not fascism or hoodlumism.
Let's not get into that. Theoretically, 51
per cent of the population can decide to eat the remaining 49
per cent. That's democracy. (On a more realistic level, a democracy
is just a disguise for an oligarchy. Every democracy in the world
is controlled by a more or less exclusive elite.)
There are enough _big_ repressive forces
in society without adding SWA critics and local townspeople to
the list.
I suspect there may be plenty of SWA critics
who might like to join up with the big repressive forces for
the purpose of bringing anthroposophy to its knees. Like some
time back in the seventies (I think - help me here, Sune) when
the police stormed the medical depot in Järna, Sweden, with
dogs and full package, and destropyed medical supplies worth
a fortune. I'm sure many critics would like to see a lot more
of that stuff.
BTW, I believe the excesses of Scientology
have occurred mostly after L. Ron's death, perpetrated by a cynical,
manipulative, criminal corporate element at the centre of the
"church".
Except the R2-45.
Cheers,
Tarjei
http://www.uncletaz.com/
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Dan Dugan
Subject: Re: learn before you leap(very long)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 01:50:25 -0800
Tarjei, you wrote,
I suspect there may be plenty of SWA critics
who might like to join up with the big repressive forces for
the purpose of bringing anthroposophy to its knees. Like some
time back in the seventies (I think - help me here, Sune) when
the police stormed the medical depot in Järna, Sweden, with
dogs and full package, and destropyed medical supplies worth
a fortune. I'm sure many critics would like to see a lot more
of that stuff.
I'd like to hear more of that story.
-Dan Dugan
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Tarjei Straume
Subject: Re: learn before you leap(very long)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 20:23:38 +0200
I wrote:
I suspect there may be plenty of SWA critics
who might like to join up with the big repressive forces for
the purpose of bringing anthroposophy to its knees. Like some
time back in the seventies (I think - help me here, Sune) when
the police stormed the medical depot in Järna, Sweden, with
dogs and full package, and destropyed medical supplies worth
a fortune. I'm sure many critics would like to see a lot more
of that stuff.
Dan Dugan wrote:
I'd like to hear more of that story.
I only heard about it verbally from my mother,
who is now deceased. If Sune doesn't remember it, I'll see what
I can dig up.
Tarjei
http://www.uncletaz.com/
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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