A massacre in my town
Alan S. Fine MD, a psychologist
specializing in cult victim recovery, posts a fresh story from
the news. It is difficult not to conclude that he is endeavoring
to associate Steiner, Anthroposophy, and Waldorf with violent
tragedies, just like John Morehead threw in a cute little poem
about Jonestown.
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From: "Alan S. Fine MD"
Subject: A massacre in my town
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 11:39:33 -0600
Yesterday, two youths, members of a neonazi
group called the "black trenchcoats", "celebrated"
Hitler's birthday by creating a massacre of students in a school
close to where I am writing at this moment. What can be learned
from this? To me we must try to raise our children to be centered,
independent, and invulnerable to the influences of groups and
groupism. I do not believe that children can be taught this explicitly.
The adults around them must set an example, by being centered
and free thinking. Is this accomplished in an environment such
as a Waldorf school, where many of the role models are so highly
influenced by the belief system of single group? My heart says
no.
Alan S. Fine MD
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From: Bruce
Subject: Re: A massacre in my town
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 15:18:57 EDT
Alan wrote:
Yesterday, two youths, members of a neonazi
group called the "black trenchcoats", "celebrated"
Hitler's birthday by creating a massacre of students in a school
close to where I am writing at this moment. What can be learned
from this? To me we must try to raise our children to be centered,
independent, and invulnerable to the influences of groups and
groupism. I do not believe that children can be taught this explicitly.
The adults around them must set an example, by being centered
and free thinking. Is this accomplished in an environment such
as a Waldorf school, where many of the role models are so highly
influenced by the belief system of single group? My heart says
no.
Firstly, I am sure all subscribers are appalled
at the events that took place in Denver. The "German"
angle is new to me - I will keep my ears and eyes open.
My heart says yes, because:
Steiner warned that if we educated the children
the wrong way, and I understand that to mean teaching them things
at the wrong time or in the wrong way, then later they will have
problems adjusting socially. I do not think he meant as early
as the 2 assassins yesterday, but I think teachers, regardless
of their belief system, have a HUGE role to play in preventing
such happenings, and serial murders and rapes and and and...
the list is unfortunately long.
EVERY teacher has some kind of belief system,
and does his/her BEST for the children, whether he/she teaches
is a waldorf school or not, of that I have no doubt. Whether
some are misguided is another matter, and not for this list.
For the sake of the victims I would recommend
that we do not pursue this thread: I find it a little sad that
Alan should chose to try and use such a tragic event to put a
point over for the WCs. If readers think I am trying to do that
for the WCCs then I am sorry - that is NOT my intention.
Bruce
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Alan S. Fine MD"
Subject: Re: A massacre in my town
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 14:01:17 -0600
minor correction, the group called themselves
the "trenchcoat mafia". They wore black trenchcoats.
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From: Stephen Tonkin
Subject: Re: A massacre in my town
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 21:15:08 +0100
Alan S. Fine MD wrote:
Yesterday, two youths, members of a neonazi
group called the "black trenchcoats", "celebrated"
Hitler's birthday by creating a massacre of students in a school
close to where I am writing at this moment. What can be
learned from this? To me we must try to raise our children
to be centered, independent, and invulnerable to the influences
of groups and groupism. I do not believe that children
can be taught this explicitly. The adults around them must
set an example, by being centered and free thinking. Is
this accomplished in an environment such as a Waldorf school,
where many of the role models are so highly influenced by the
belief system of single group? My heart says no.
This item has been the lead item in UK news
bulletins last night and today, knocking the war in the Balkans
into "second place". It is a shocking tragedy. When
I heard it last night, I recalled that Alan Fine, Gerry Palo
and possibly others who have had a relationship to this list
were located in the Denver area. I imagined that, if I felt so
deeply shocked, those of you who are closer to it must feel it
much more deeply. It really did not occur to me that any would
exploit it to attempt, albeit lamely, to score points. Even a
couple of years or so ago, when a former Waldorf pupil was actively
involved in a shooting incident (the details of which I have
forgotten -- also Denver area?), I do not recall the "critics"
using it to score points.
However, to address Dr Fine's point, there
is no guarantee that Waldorf education will prevent this sort
of thing. But there is the gruesome evidence that *something*
in the lives of those kids has allowed this to happen. I'm not
going to point a finger at the education system, the society,
the constitution that gives them the right to own automatic weapons,
their families, or anything else -- because I don't know. Each
and any of those is too simplistic. I don't believe sociology
can ever be a science in the sense that such things can be predicted
to inculcate such an action, despite the fact that the appalling
evidence is that none of them was able to prevent it.
The point is that human life is a heck of
a lot less simplistic than that. Whatever our differences, I
like to think that most of us who are active in this list are
here because we care deeply, passionately, about the education,
the education of our children towards being centred, independent,
free, purposeful human beings. I suggest that the best thing
we can do in memory of those children and their teacher is to
see how we can work, in our own ways, to reduce the likelihood
of a recurrence. We're not going to do that by using these tragic
deaths to score cheap political points.
Stephen
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From: Michael Hirsch
Subject: Re: A massacre in my town
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 16:29:16 -0400 (EDT)
Alan wrote:
Yesterday, two youths, members of a neonazi
group called the "black trenchcoats", "celebrated"
Hitler's birthday by creating a massacre of students in a school
close to where I am writing at this moment. What can be learned
from this? To me we must try to raise our children to be centered,
independent, and invulnerable to the influences of groups and
groupism. I do not believe that children can be taught this explicitly.
The adults around them must set an example, by being centered
and free thinking. Is this accomplished in an environment such
as a Waldorf school, where many of the role models are so highly
influenced by the belief system of single group? My heart says
no.
For the record, one of the things I like most
about our local Waldorf school is the attitudes I see in the
children at the festivals. I have never seen a fight and never
(that I recall) a normal petty disagreement. I have seen the
children be happy for each others successes with no jealously
on the part of the person who didn't win.
Everyone is helpful and cooperative, a nice
change from everyday life, and in my experience, other school
children.
I would be much more surprised to see something
like this from the local Waldorf school than from the "best
public school in the state" about a mile from my house.
Obviously, I would be rather surprised in either case.
--Michael
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From: Sune Nordwall
Subject: Re: A massacre in my town
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 08:23:20 +0200
Stephen Tonkin wrote:
I'm not going to point a finger at the
education system, the society, the constitution that gives them
the right to own automatic weapons, their families, or anything
else -- because I don't know. Each and any of those is too simplistic.
I don't believe sociology can ever be a science in the sense
that such things can be predicted to inculcate such an action,
despite the fact that the appalling evidence is that none of
them was able to prevent it.
Yet, maybe one thing:
According to Swedish news, the "Free
weapons for all"-lobby is especially strong in the Denver
area, maybe an expression of and certainly a contribution to
the social atmosphere there.
Sune Nordwall
Stockholm, Sweden
http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/indexeng.htm
- a site on science, homeopathy, cosmological cell biology and
EU as a mechanical esoteric temple and threefolding of society
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From: "ksutphen"
Subject: Re: A massacre in my town
Date: Sat, 24 Apr 1999 15:21:38 -0700
Stephen Tonkin wrote:
I'm not going to point a finger at the
education system, the society, the constitution that gives them
the right to own automatic weapons, their families, or anything
else -- because I don't know. Each and any of those is too simplistic.
I don't believe sociology can ever be a science in the sense
that such things can be predicted to inculcate such an action,
despite the fact that the appalling evidence is that none of
them was able to prevent it.
Sune Nordwall:
Yet, maybe one thing:
According to Swedish news, the "Free
weapons for all"-lobby is especially strong in the Denver
area, maybe an expression of and certainly a contribution to
the social atmosphere there.
I'm not sure about the "Free Weapons
for All" lobby in Denver; however, the press states these
weapons were obtained illegally. Minors are not permitted to
own these types of weapons. I'm not sure of the legal standards
for adults for ownership of the types of weapons used in this
tragedy.
It is apparent that these two kids were operating
in a vacuum in terms of adequate involvement by the significant
adults in their lives. The time required simply to produce the
bombs in a garage in a suburban neighborhood is enough to show
that adults were not checking in with them even for a simple,
"Hi . . . hello . . . watch doin'?"
This massacre did not occur far from the one
carried out approximately a year ago by the son of the founding
members of a Denver Waldorf school.
Kathy
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From: redon
Subject: Re: A massacre in my town
Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1999 08:34:48 -0500
From: "ksutphen"
This massacre did not occur far from the
one carried out approximately a year ago by the son of the founding
members of a Denver Waldorf school.
Kathy
Where you hoping to hit a nerve here Kathy
or are you just trolling?
Why didn't you mention the girl who was asked
if she believed in Jesus and when she responded "Yes, I
believe in Jesus" was shot point blank in front of her best
friend
You didn't mention how the teacher was huddled
with his students as gun fire rattled out side his class room
and then began praying to "God" with his students,
in a Public School
You didn't mention that these boys were teased
day in and day out by their fellow students and the Public School
did nothing to stop it
You didn't mention that these two boys listened
to hate music and played violent video games every chance they
got including within the walls of the Public School
You didn't mention that they had planed this
attack for over a year in great detail and that much of what
they used was out in the open in front of their parents
You didn't mention that instead of calling
911 one child who was locked in a classroom chose to call the
local TV station and instead give a play by play account of what
was happening in the Public School.
You didn't mention how this Public School
denied every hearing of the "trench coat mafia" when
their pictures were clearly in the Public School year book.
You didn't mention how the English teacher
of this Public School praised these two boys for several papers
they wrote about death.
You didn't mention how this Public School
conducted a course in Death Ed. including as one child put it,
""We talked about what we wanted to look like in our
casket. This child believed she was seduced into a suicide attempt
by her Death Ed class.."
You didn't mention the video they made with
Public School equipment about the massacre of their fellow students
and teachers
You didn't mention how this Public School
ignored the fights between these two boys and the jocks on Public
School property just a few days prior.
There is more, the list goes on.
One last thing and I believe this is an important
factor that you forgot to mention, this adult who shot the police
officer in Denver last year left the Waldorf School as a child
and attended a Public High School before his run in with the
law began.
For you to make the slightest implication
that a Waldorf School would allow or encourage ANY of these tragic
events which added up to what happen in this Public School is
absurd.
The only thing you are presenting to the reader
is a festering illness of bitterness and hate you have towards
Waldorf Education
What will come from your fingers next... that
these two boys did what they did because they were gay?
**********
""We must teach our children to
settle their differences through words and not weapons."
-Bill Clinton.
Meanwhile, this same President, continues
a daily slaughter of human beings. He says it's because the people
he is bombing are doing their own slaughter. He has chosen to
respond to their actions not with "words" but with
death."
-Michael Moore
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Alan
S. Fine MD"
Subject: Re: A massacre in my town
Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1999 10:15:58 -0600
Sune you wrote:
According to Swedish news, the "Free
weapons for all"-lobby is especially strong in the Denver
area, maybe an expression of and certainly a contribution to
the social atmosphere there.
I agree. I have always admired the anti violence
initiatives in your country. The culture of violence and the
availability of guns can have its impact on certain misguided
young people. Now my question for you. Do you believe that occultism
can inspire evil actions in the minds of certain types of people
as well? I believe it can and it does.
Alan S. Fine MD
[This
exchange continues in another thread.]
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "ksutphen"
Subject: Re: A massacre in my town
Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1999 17:15:41 -0700
Redon posts:
This massacre did not occur far from the
one carried out approximately a year ago by the son of the founding
members of a Denver Waldorf school.
Kathy
Where you hoping to hit a nerve here Kathy
or are you just trolling?
I guess I did hit a nerve. Your post was quite
unsettling to read.
(snip: Diatribe describing the many ways Redon
believes he *knows* the public school contributed to and/or is
responsible for this horrific incident.)
For you to make the slightest implication
that a Waldorf School would allow or encourage ANY of these tragic
events which added up to what happen in this Public School is
absurd.
I had no intention of implying that a WaldorfSchool
would allow or encourage any of these tragic events. Nor do I
believe a public school would do so. What I did post was the
following:
"It is apparent that
these two kids were operating in a vacuum in terms of adequate
involvement by the significant adults in their lives. The time
required simply to produce the bombs in a garage in a suburban
neighborhood is enough to show that adults were not checking
in with them even for a simple, "Hi . . . hello . . . watcha
doin'?"
This phenomena is not limited to children
that attend public schools. I suppose I was attempting to head
off the public school bashing at the pass with the example of
the Anthropsophists'/Waldorf school founders' skinhead son that
engaged in an act of violence not far from the Columbine High
incident.
It's my opinion that troubled children are
more likely to escalate to these sorts of incidents when they
lack a connection with the significant adults in their lives.
I don't believe violence of this sort is specific to any particular
*type* of pedagogy. It's my guess the problems start at home
and, if we're lucky, can be addressed in the school if an adult
there makes the connection and is able to have a positive influence
on a troubled child.
The only thing you are presenting to the
reader is a festering illness of bitterness and hate you have
towards Waldorf Education
Gosh, that's a mighty big slam. I don't have
a festering illness of bitterness and hate toward Waldorf education.
In fact, considering the manner in which it almost destroyed
my career I consider it a sign of a healthy emotional state on
my part that I have no problem whatsoever with folks chosing
Waldorf as a private education source for their children.
What will come from your fingers next...
that these two boys did what they did because they were gay?
Jeez! When did I come across as a gay basher?
Where the heck did this come from? Your caustic remarks are sounding
a bit pathological here.
Calm yourself.
Kathy
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Tarjei Straume
Subject: Re: A massacre in my town
Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 03:21:00 +0200
Alan S. Fine wrote (to Sune):
I agree. I have always admired the anti
violence initiatives in your country. The culture of violence
and the availability of guns can have its impact on certain misguided
young people.
Norway has one of the most liberal gun legislations
in the world, but so far, the homicide rate has been very low.
It seems like most people who buy guns here do so for sport or
hunting, and almost never for self-protection against criminals
or any other human beings.
Now my question for you. Do you believe
that occultism can inspire evil actions in the minds of certain
types of people as well? I believe it can and it does.
Alan, since you're the one who introduced
the tragedy in Littleton to this list as a philosophical-political
football, it's worth mentioning that according to an American,
orthodox, patriotic Christian group, *atheism* is to blame.
I have forwarded a post from talk.religion.misc
about this, but it doess not seem to be arriving. The report
says:
"A Columbine killer pointed his gun at
Cassie Bernall and asked her the life-or-death question: "Do
you believe in God?"
"She paused. The gun was still there.
"Yes, I believe in God," she said.
"That was the last thing this 17-year-old
Christian would ever say.
"Both of the teen-aged gunmen were avowed
atheists."
The message from Bill McGinnis Ministries
concludes:
"There is no morality without religion.
If there is no God, then anything other than brutal self interest
is sentimental nonsense. There is no Godless system of morality
ever devised by man which is anything more than vapors in the
wind."
Here is a question for you Alan: Do you believe
that atheism can inspire evil actions in the minds of certain
types of people as well?
Cheers
Tarjei Straume
Greetings from Uncle Taz
http://www.uncletaz.com/
Anarchosophy, anarchism, anthroposophy, occultism,
Christianity, poetry, plays, library, articles, galleries, marijuana,
criminality, death, skulls, skeletons, banners, links, links,
links. Big section in Norwegian.
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From: Stephen Tonkin
Subject: Re: A massacre in my town
Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 20:19:25 +0100
ksutphen wrote:
I had no intention of implying that a WaldorfSchool
would allow or encourage any of these tragic events. Nor do I
believe a public school would do so.
If you change that to "knowingly encourage",
I am in complete agreement (as regards both public and Waldorf
schools).
As I said earlier in this thread, to blame
the education is (IMHO) extremely simplistic. I have friends
who are state (public) school teachers and, whilst we find things
to disagree about in our various approaches to education, we
find many more to agree about. This includes a concern about
the level of violence in society, especially amongst the young.
<rant>
It's not just education, or just TV, or just
western society or "just" anything else. These things
may or may not play into it, but we do no- one a service if we
use any of these nasty events (and there have been 3 very nasty
episodes in the UK in the last 10 days) as a political football
(no, Kathy, I am not implying that you are doing that). If those
of us who purport to care about society and decent values cannot
rise above our relatively minor disagreements and try to identify
the real causes of the Columbine massacre, of the Brixton bombing,
of the murder of Jill Dando, and of God knows how many other
things, then I despair, I really do!
</rant>
Noctis Gaudia Carpe,
Stephen
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From: "ksutphen"
Subject: Re: A massacre in my town
Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 21:00:31 -0700
Stephen Tonkin posts:
ksutphen wrote:
I had no intention of implying that a WaldorfSchool
would allow or encourage any of these tragic events. Nor do I
believe a public school would do so.
If you change that to "knowingly encourage",
I am in complete agreement (as regards both public and Waldorf
schools).
You wording is an improvement. "Knowingly
encourage" sums it up.
It's not just education, or just TV, or
just western society or "just" anything else. These
things may or may not play into it, but we do no- one a service
if we use any of these nasty events (and there have been 3 very
nasty episodes in the UK in the last 10 days) as a political
football (no, Kathy, I am not implying that you are doing that).
I agree that these events are far more complicated
then we, as distant onlookers, can imagine.
If those of us who purport to care about
society and decent values cannot rise above our relatively minor
disagreements and try to identify the real causes of the Columbine
massacre, of the Brixton bombing, of the murder of Jill Dando,
and of God knows how many other things, then I despair, I really
do!
I think we all do. However, we must begin
at the parts of it we think we may understand. I cannot help
but believe that media violence plays a large part. But even
this would land somewhat innocuously on a child that is loved
and has an active engagement with significant, positive adult
role models. My career has been working with troubled kids -
more than I want to count were or became murderers. One thing
they all seem to have in common is a lack of connection to positive
role models. I haven't met a one that was a valued, committed
member of a positive group, ie; family, church, club . . . The
family seems to be the most important key.
Thanks for your post.
Kathy
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Stephen Tonkin
Subject: Re: A massacre in my town
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 06:08:57 +0100
ksutphen wrote:
However, we must begin at the parts of
it we think we may understand. I cannot help but believe that
media violence plays a large part. But even this would land somewhat
innocuously on a child that is loved and has an active engagement
with significant, positive adult role models. My career has been
working with troubled kids - more than I want to count were or
became murderers. One thing they all seem to have in common is
a lack of connection to positive role models.
I suspect that this is one of several factors,
many of which are somehow inter-connected. I suspect that the
gradual transition from thriving supportive communities to isolated
individualism (OK, this is a bit of an extreme characterisation,
but I think you probably know what I mean) is also a contributory
factor.
This is probably getting well OT for this
list, but it is something I would be interested in discussing
further by email if you (Kathy) or anyone else are also interested.
(But I will be away from 'pooter for several days from tomorrow
a.m.)
Noctis Gaudia Carpe,
Stephen
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